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Are Trolls immune to all instant death effects?
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The Troll's Regeneration feature says:
[...] The troll dies only if it starts its turn with 0 Hit Points and doesn't Regenerate.
Does this case beat instant kill effects, such as Divine Word Or Power Word Kill?
Divine Word says:
[...] On a failed save, a creature suffers an effect based on its
current Hit Points.
- [...] 20 Hit Points or fewer - killed instantly
And Power Word Kill says:
[...] If the creature you chose has 100 Hit Points or fewer, it dies. Otherwise, the spell has no effect.
It seems like Regeneration enumerates the only case where a Troll can "die". But is Regeneration specific enough that it beats all other death effects?
dnd-5e rules-as-written
asked 1 hour ago
Deltatheduck
422113
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The Troll's Regeneration feature says:
[...] The troll dies only if it starts its turn with 0 Hit Points and doesn't Regenerate.
Does this case beat instant kill effects, such as Divine Word Or Power Word Kill?
Divine Word says:
[...] On a failed save, a creature suffers an effect based on its
current Hit Points.
- [...] 20 Hit Points or fewer - killed instantly
And Power Word Kill says:
[...] If the creature you chose has 100 Hit Points or fewer, it dies. Otherwise, the spell has no effect.
It seems like Regeneration enumerates the only case where a Troll can "die". But is Regeneration specific enough that it beats all other death effects?
dnd-5e rules-as-written
asked 1 hour ago
Deltatheduck
422113
add a comment |Â
up vote
10
down vote
favorite
up vote
10
down vote
favorite
The Troll's Regeneration feature says:
[...] The troll dies only if it starts its turn with 0 Hit Points and doesn't Regenerate.
Does this case beat instant kill effects, such as Divine Word Or Power Word Kill?
Divine Word says:
[...] On a failed save, a creature suffers an effect based on its
current Hit Points.
- [...] 20 Hit Points or fewer - killed instantly
And Power Word Kill says:
[...] If the creature you chose has 100 Hit Points or fewer, it dies. Otherwise, the spell has no effect.
It seems like Regeneration enumerates the only case where a Troll can "die". But is Regeneration specific enough that it beats all other death effects?
dnd-5e rules-as-written
asked 1 hour ago
Deltatheduck
422113
The Troll's Regeneration feature says:
[...] The troll dies only if it starts its turn with 0 Hit Points and doesn't Regenerate.
Does this case beat instant kill effects, such as Divine Word Or Power Word Kill?
Divine Word says:
[...] On a failed save, a creature suffers an effect based on its
current Hit Points.
- [...] 20 Hit Points or fewer - killed instantly
And Power Word Kill says:
[...] If the creature you chose has 100 Hit Points or fewer, it dies. Otherwise, the spell has no effect.
It seems like Regeneration enumerates the only case where a Troll can "die". But is Regeneration specific enough that it beats all other death effects?
dnd-5e rules-as-written
dnd-5e rules-as-written
asked 1 hour ago
Deltatheduck
422113
asked 1 hour ago
Deltatheduck
422113
asked 1 hour ago
Deltatheduck
422113
asked 1 hour ago
Deltatheduck
422113
asked 1 hour ago
Deltatheduck
422113
422113
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
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up vote
6
down vote
The rules as written are ambiguous - and so it's up to the DM's ruling
Unfortunately, it's not clear exactly how these rules interact. The troll has an ability which apparently specifies the only circumstances in which a troll dies, and these spells can cause creatures to die instantly; both are exceptions to the normal rules about how things can die, so the principle that "specific beats general" guides us in trying to resolve the conflict, but judging which of the two features is more specific seems subjective and ambiguous.
If you interpret the spell's rules as being more specific than troll regeneration, the troll dies; and since it is dead, regeneration becomes meaningless. If you interpret the troll's regeneration as being more specific than the spell, it precludes the death from happening despite the spell's effect.
I'm a little torn on which way I would rule myself. On the one hand, purely on specific-beats-general principles, I'd read the troll's ability as more specific than the spell; the spells can, after all, be used on many different kinds of creatures by many different casters, but a troll's regeneration is only ever about trolls.
However, I would also have been tempted to interpret the troll's regeneration ability as only being relevant to hit point damage, and that the intended meaning was that a troll reduced to 0 hit points only dies if it can't regenerate; so that the wider restriction on the troll's manner of death is only an artefact of bad writing.
As far as I can tell the issue has not been addressed by the designers, so without further insight it's the DM's discretion as to whether or not this unlucky troll dies.
answered 13 mins ago
Carcer
19k249104
add a comment |Â
up vote
-1
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A very dead troll
Jeremy Crawford says:
If you have 100 hp or fewer, power word kill causes you to die. Notice that it doesn't say you drop to 0 hp.
Beast form ends if the druid dies; things like power word kill can end you without reducing hit points.
The wording for the Divine Word spell also says nothing about reducing hit points simply that it kills anything with 20 or less.
The troll is does not start it's turn at 0 Hit Points; Regeneration does not apply.
answered 34 mins ago
Anonymous
71
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3
The problem is that the wording of the troll's regeneration is not "if the troll starts its turn with 0 hit points, it only dies if it doesn't regenerate"; it is "the troll dies only if..."
– Carcer
31 mins ago
1
"The troll is does[sic] not start it's turn at 0 Hit Points; Regeneration does not apply." <- Regeneration says the troll only dies if it has zero hit points (and doesn't regenerate). I don't see how it doesn't apply.
– kviiri
29 mins ago
@Carcer If a creature is dead it is no longer a creature but an object and an object doesn't have creature features and thus doesn't regenerate.
– Slagmoth
28 mins ago
1
@Slagmoth That's assuming it dies in the first place, which is what we're disputing.
– kviiri
27 mins ago
@kviiri I don't see how it is a dispute, the Troll is dead before it even starts its turn.
– Slagmoth
25 mins ago
 |Â
show 9 more comments
up vote
-1
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It's unclear which is more specific
This is a case where it's not clear which specific rule beats the general rule, since it's not clear which rule is "more specific". In this case the rules are:
- The normal general rules by which a creature dies;
- The specific rules by which the troll dies;
- The specific spell's rules that override how a creature dies;
Clearly the least specific answer is at the top, but which of the next two rules takes precedence?
Therefore, you could either treat the last one as more specific, in which case when divine word says "killed instantly", or power word kill says "it dies", then the troll dies, regardless of how it would die during "normal" combat (i.e. not when subjected to high level spells that bypass the usual means of killing). Or you could treat the monster ability as more specific, in which case the troll does not die.
The Specific Beats General section from the PHB, pg. 7, states:
[M]any racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.
...
Magic accounts for most of the major exceptions to the rules.
This shows that both spells and monster ability could be thought of as being more specific, and doesn't really help us to adjudicate which is more specific in this example.
answered 55 mins ago
NathanS
16.4k471175
4
How do you justify the spell's rule being more specific than the troll's rule? Without a justification, this answer is just "this is how I'd rule it".
– kviiri
51 mins ago
Yeah, this just as easily could be the other way around.
– mattdm
47 mins ago
Specific beats general alone doesn't usually support a stance since it's debatable what is more specific. I suggest finding more rigorous justification.
– doppelgreener♦
31 mins ago
I honestly don't understand the counter argument against this... if the troll is truly "killed" prior to its turn it doesn't start at 0hp because it is no longer really a troll (it is a corpse) therefore doesn't have the regeneration feature anymore than a table would have it.
– Slagmoth
17 mins ago
1
It seems we had the same conclusion, then.
– Carcer
9 mins ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
6
down vote
The rules as written are ambiguous - and so it's up to the DM's ruling
Unfortunately, it's not clear exactly how these rules interact. The troll has an ability which apparently specifies the only circumstances in which a troll dies, and these spells can cause creatures to die instantly; both are exceptions to the normal rules about how things can die, so the principle that "specific beats general" guides us in trying to resolve the conflict, but judging which of the two features is more specific seems subjective and ambiguous.
If you interpret the spell's rules as being more specific than troll regeneration, the troll dies; and since it is dead, regeneration becomes meaningless. If you interpret the troll's regeneration as being more specific than the spell, it precludes the death from happening despite the spell's effect.
I'm a little torn on which way I would rule myself. On the one hand, purely on specific-beats-general principles, I'd read the troll's ability as more specific than the spell; the spells can, after all, be used on many different kinds of creatures by many different casters, but a troll's regeneration is only ever about trolls.
However, I would also have been tempted to interpret the troll's regeneration ability as only being relevant to hit point damage, and that the intended meaning was that a troll reduced to 0 hit points only dies if it can't regenerate; so that the wider restriction on the troll's manner of death is only an artefact of bad writing.
As far as I can tell the issue has not been addressed by the designers, so without further insight it's the DM's discretion as to whether or not this unlucky troll dies.
answered 13 mins ago
Carcer
19k249104
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
The rules as written are ambiguous - and so it's up to the DM's ruling
Unfortunately, it's not clear exactly how these rules interact. The troll has an ability which apparently specifies the only circumstances in which a troll dies, and these spells can cause creatures to die instantly; both are exceptions to the normal rules about how things can die, so the principle that "specific beats general" guides us in trying to resolve the conflict, but judging which of the two features is more specific seems subjective and ambiguous.
If you interpret the spell's rules as being more specific than troll regeneration, the troll dies; and since it is dead, regeneration becomes meaningless. If you interpret the troll's regeneration as being more specific than the spell, it precludes the death from happening despite the spell's effect.
I'm a little torn on which way I would rule myself. On the one hand, purely on specific-beats-general principles, I'd read the troll's ability as more specific than the spell; the spells can, after all, be used on many different kinds of creatures by many different casters, but a troll's regeneration is only ever about trolls.
However, I would also have been tempted to interpret the troll's regeneration ability as only being relevant to hit point damage, and that the intended meaning was that a troll reduced to 0 hit points only dies if it can't regenerate; so that the wider restriction on the troll's manner of death is only an artefact of bad writing.
As far as I can tell the issue has not been addressed by the designers, so without further insight it's the DM's discretion as to whether or not this unlucky troll dies.
answered 13 mins ago
Carcer
19k249104
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
up vote
6
down vote
The rules as written are ambiguous - and so it's up to the DM's ruling
Unfortunately, it's not clear exactly how these rules interact. The troll has an ability which apparently specifies the only circumstances in which a troll dies, and these spells can cause creatures to die instantly; both are exceptions to the normal rules about how things can die, so the principle that "specific beats general" guides us in trying to resolve the conflict, but judging which of the two features is more specific seems subjective and ambiguous.
If you interpret the spell's rules as being more specific than troll regeneration, the troll dies; and since it is dead, regeneration becomes meaningless. If you interpret the troll's regeneration as being more specific than the spell, it precludes the death from happening despite the spell's effect.
I'm a little torn on which way I would rule myself. On the one hand, purely on specific-beats-general principles, I'd read the troll's ability as more specific than the spell; the spells can, after all, be used on many different kinds of creatures by many different casters, but a troll's regeneration is only ever about trolls.
However, I would also have been tempted to interpret the troll's regeneration ability as only being relevant to hit point damage, and that the intended meaning was that a troll reduced to 0 hit points only dies if it can't regenerate; so that the wider restriction on the troll's manner of death is only an artefact of bad writing.
As far as I can tell the issue has not been addressed by the designers, so without further insight it's the DM's discretion as to whether or not this unlucky troll dies.
answered 13 mins ago
Carcer
19k249104
The rules as written are ambiguous - and so it's up to the DM's ruling
Unfortunately, it's not clear exactly how these rules interact. The troll has an ability which apparently specifies the only circumstances in which a troll dies, and these spells can cause creatures to die instantly; both are exceptions to the normal rules about how things can die, so the principle that "specific beats general" guides us in trying to resolve the conflict, but judging which of the two features is more specific seems subjective and ambiguous.
If you interpret the spell's rules as being more specific than troll regeneration, the troll dies; and since it is dead, regeneration becomes meaningless. If you interpret the troll's regeneration as being more specific than the spell, it precludes the death from happening despite the spell's effect.
I'm a little torn on which way I would rule myself. On the one hand, purely on specific-beats-general principles, I'd read the troll's ability as more specific than the spell; the spells can, after all, be used on many different kinds of creatures by many different casters, but a troll's regeneration is only ever about trolls.
However, I would also have been tempted to interpret the troll's regeneration ability as only being relevant to hit point damage, and that the intended meaning was that a troll reduced to 0 hit points only dies if it can't regenerate; so that the wider restriction on the troll's manner of death is only an artefact of bad writing.
As far as I can tell the issue has not been addressed by the designers, so without further insight it's the DM's discretion as to whether or not this unlucky troll dies.
answered 13 mins ago
Carcer
19k249104
edited 6 mins ago
answered 13 mins ago
Carcer
19k249104
answered 13 mins ago
Carcer
19k249104
answered 13 mins ago
Carcer
19k249104
19k249104
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
-1
down vote
A very dead troll
Jeremy Crawford says:
If you have 100 hp or fewer, power word kill causes you to die. Notice that it doesn't say you drop to 0 hp.
Beast form ends if the druid dies; things like power word kill can end you without reducing hit points.
The wording for the Divine Word spell also says nothing about reducing hit points simply that it kills anything with 20 or less.
The troll is does not start it's turn at 0 Hit Points; Regeneration does not apply.
answered 34 mins ago
Anonymous
71
New contributor
Anonymous is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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3
The problem is that the wording of the troll's regeneration is not "if the troll starts its turn with 0 hit points, it only dies if it doesn't regenerate"; it is "the troll dies only if..."
– Carcer
31 mins ago
1
"The troll is does[sic] not start it's turn at 0 Hit Points; Regeneration does not apply." <- Regeneration says the troll only dies if it has zero hit points (and doesn't regenerate). I don't see how it doesn't apply.
– kviiri
29 mins ago
@Carcer If a creature is dead it is no longer a creature but an object and an object doesn't have creature features and thus doesn't regenerate.
– Slagmoth
28 mins ago
1
@Slagmoth That's assuming it dies in the first place, which is what we're disputing.
– kviiri
27 mins ago
@kviiri I don't see how it is a dispute, the Troll is dead before it even starts its turn.
– Slagmoth
25 mins ago
 |Â
show 9 more comments
up vote
-1
down vote
A very dead troll
Jeremy Crawford says:
If you have 100 hp or fewer, power word kill causes you to die. Notice that it doesn't say you drop to 0 hp.
Beast form ends if the druid dies; things like power word kill can end you without reducing hit points.
The wording for the Divine Word spell also says nothing about reducing hit points simply that it kills anything with 20 or less.
The troll is does not start it's turn at 0 Hit Points; Regeneration does not apply.
answered 34 mins ago
Anonymous
71
New contributor
Anonymous is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
3
The problem is that the wording of the troll's regeneration is not "if the troll starts its turn with 0 hit points, it only dies if it doesn't regenerate"; it is "the troll dies only if..."
– Carcer
31 mins ago
1
"The troll is does[sic] not start it's turn at 0 Hit Points; Regeneration does not apply." <- Regeneration says the troll only dies if it has zero hit points (and doesn't regenerate). I don't see how it doesn't apply.
– kviiri
29 mins ago
@Carcer If a creature is dead it is no longer a creature but an object and an object doesn't have creature features and thus doesn't regenerate.
– Slagmoth
28 mins ago
1
@Slagmoth That's assuming it dies in the first place, which is what we're disputing.
– kviiri
27 mins ago
@kviiri I don't see how it is a dispute, the Troll is dead before it even starts its turn.
– Slagmoth
25 mins ago
 |Â
show 9 more comments
up vote
-1
down vote
up vote
-1
down vote
A very dead troll
Jeremy Crawford says:
If you have 100 hp or fewer, power word kill causes you to die. Notice that it doesn't say you drop to 0 hp.
Beast form ends if the druid dies; things like power word kill can end you without reducing hit points.
The wording for the Divine Word spell also says nothing about reducing hit points simply that it kills anything with 20 or less.
The troll is does not start it's turn at 0 Hit Points; Regeneration does not apply.
answered 34 mins ago
Anonymous
71
New contributor
Anonymous is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
A very dead troll
Jeremy Crawford says:
If you have 100 hp or fewer, power word kill causes you to die. Notice that it doesn't say you drop to 0 hp.
Beast form ends if the druid dies; things like power word kill can end you without reducing hit points.
The wording for the Divine Word spell also says nothing about reducing hit points simply that it kills anything with 20 or less.
The troll is does not start it's turn at 0 Hit Points; Regeneration does not apply.
answered 34 mins ago
Anonymous
71
New contributor
Anonymous is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 34 mins ago
Anonymous
71
New contributor
Anonymous is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 34 mins ago
Anonymous
71
answered 34 mins ago
Anonymous
71
71
New contributor
Anonymous is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Anonymous is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Anonymous is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
3
The problem is that the wording of the troll's regeneration is not "if the troll starts its turn with 0 hit points, it only dies if it doesn't regenerate"; it is "the troll dies only if..."
– Carcer
31 mins ago
1
"The troll is does[sic] not start it's turn at 0 Hit Points; Regeneration does not apply." <- Regeneration says the troll only dies if it has zero hit points (and doesn't regenerate). I don't see how it doesn't apply.
– kviiri
29 mins ago
@Carcer If a creature is dead it is no longer a creature but an object and an object doesn't have creature features and thus doesn't regenerate.
– Slagmoth
28 mins ago
1
@Slagmoth That's assuming it dies in the first place, which is what we're disputing.
– kviiri
27 mins ago
@kviiri I don't see how it is a dispute, the Troll is dead before it even starts its turn.
– Slagmoth
25 mins ago
 |Â
show 9 more comments
3
The problem is that the wording of the troll's regeneration is not "if the troll starts its turn with 0 hit points, it only dies if it doesn't regenerate"; it is "the troll dies only if..."
– Carcer
31 mins ago
1
"The troll is does[sic] not start it's turn at 0 Hit Points; Regeneration does not apply." <- Regeneration says the troll only dies if it has zero hit points (and doesn't regenerate). I don't see how it doesn't apply.
– kviiri
29 mins ago
@Carcer If a creature is dead it is no longer a creature but an object and an object doesn't have creature features and thus doesn't regenerate.
– Slagmoth
28 mins ago
1
@Slagmoth That's assuming it dies in the first place, which is what we're disputing.
– kviiri
27 mins ago
@kviiri I don't see how it is a dispute, the Troll is dead before it even starts its turn.
– Slagmoth
25 mins ago
3
3
The problem is that the wording of the troll's regeneration is not "if the troll starts its turn with 0 hit points, it only dies if it doesn't regenerate"; it is "the troll dies only if..."
– Carcer
31 mins ago
The problem is that the wording of the troll's regeneration is not "if the troll starts its turn with 0 hit points, it only dies if it doesn't regenerate"; it is "the troll dies only if..."
– Carcer
31 mins ago
1
1
"The troll is does[sic] not start it's turn at 0 Hit Points; Regeneration does not apply." <- Regeneration says the troll only dies if it has zero hit points (and doesn't regenerate). I don't see how it doesn't apply.
– kviiri
29 mins ago
"The troll is does[sic] not start it's turn at 0 Hit Points; Regeneration does not apply." <- Regeneration says the troll only dies if it has zero hit points (and doesn't regenerate). I don't see how it doesn't apply.
– kviiri
29 mins ago
@Carcer If a creature is dead it is no longer a creature but an object and an object doesn't have creature features and thus doesn't regenerate.
– Slagmoth
28 mins ago
@Carcer If a creature is dead it is no longer a creature but an object and an object doesn't have creature features and thus doesn't regenerate.
– Slagmoth
28 mins ago
1
1
@Slagmoth That's assuming it dies in the first place, which is what we're disputing.
– kviiri
27 mins ago
@Slagmoth That's assuming it dies in the first place, which is what we're disputing.
– kviiri
27 mins ago
@kviiri I don't see how it is a dispute, the Troll is dead before it even starts its turn.
– Slagmoth
25 mins ago
@kviiri I don't see how it is a dispute, the Troll is dead before it even starts its turn.
– Slagmoth
25 mins ago
 |Â
show 9 more comments
up vote
-1
down vote
It's unclear which is more specific
This is a case where it's not clear which specific rule beats the general rule, since it's not clear which rule is "more specific". In this case the rules are:
- The normal general rules by which a creature dies;
- The specific rules by which the troll dies;
- The specific spell's rules that override how a creature dies;
Clearly the least specific answer is at the top, but which of the next two rules takes precedence?
Therefore, you could either treat the last one as more specific, in which case when divine word says "killed instantly", or power word kill says "it dies", then the troll dies, regardless of how it would die during "normal" combat (i.e. not when subjected to high level spells that bypass the usual means of killing). Or you could treat the monster ability as more specific, in which case the troll does not die.
The Specific Beats General section from the PHB, pg. 7, states:
[M]any racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.
...
Magic accounts for most of the major exceptions to the rules.
This shows that both spells and monster ability could be thought of as being more specific, and doesn't really help us to adjudicate which is more specific in this example.
answered 55 mins ago
NathanS
16.4k471175
4
How do you justify the spell's rule being more specific than the troll's rule? Without a justification, this answer is just "this is how I'd rule it".
– kviiri
51 mins ago
Yeah, this just as easily could be the other way around.
– mattdm
47 mins ago
Specific beats general alone doesn't usually support a stance since it's debatable what is more specific. I suggest finding more rigorous justification.
– doppelgreener♦
31 mins ago
I honestly don't understand the counter argument against this... if the troll is truly "killed" prior to its turn it doesn't start at 0hp because it is no longer really a troll (it is a corpse) therefore doesn't have the regeneration feature anymore than a table would have it.
– Slagmoth
17 mins ago
1
It seems we had the same conclusion, then.
– Carcer
9 mins ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
-1
down vote
It's unclear which is more specific
This is a case where it's not clear which specific rule beats the general rule, since it's not clear which rule is "more specific". In this case the rules are:
- The normal general rules by which a creature dies;
- The specific rules by which the troll dies;
- The specific spell's rules that override how a creature dies;
Clearly the least specific answer is at the top, but which of the next two rules takes precedence?
Therefore, you could either treat the last one as more specific, in which case when divine word says "killed instantly", or power word kill says "it dies", then the troll dies, regardless of how it would die during "normal" combat (i.e. not when subjected to high level spells that bypass the usual means of killing). Or you could treat the monster ability as more specific, in which case the troll does not die.
The Specific Beats General section from the PHB, pg. 7, states:
[M]any racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.
...
Magic accounts for most of the major exceptions to the rules.
This shows that both spells and monster ability could be thought of as being more specific, and doesn't really help us to adjudicate which is more specific in this example.
answered 55 mins ago
NathanS
16.4k471175
4
How do you justify the spell's rule being more specific than the troll's rule? Without a justification, this answer is just "this is how I'd rule it".
– kviiri
51 mins ago
Yeah, this just as easily could be the other way around.
– mattdm
47 mins ago
Specific beats general alone doesn't usually support a stance since it's debatable what is more specific. I suggest finding more rigorous justification.
– doppelgreener♦
31 mins ago
I honestly don't understand the counter argument against this... if the troll is truly "killed" prior to its turn it doesn't start at 0hp because it is no longer really a troll (it is a corpse) therefore doesn't have the regeneration feature anymore than a table would have it.
– Slagmoth
17 mins ago
1
It seems we had the same conclusion, then.
– Carcer
9 mins ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
-1
down vote
up vote
-1
down vote
It's unclear which is more specific
This is a case where it's not clear which specific rule beats the general rule, since it's not clear which rule is "more specific". In this case the rules are:
- The normal general rules by which a creature dies;
- The specific rules by which the troll dies;
- The specific spell's rules that override how a creature dies;
Clearly the least specific answer is at the top, but which of the next two rules takes precedence?
Therefore, you could either treat the last one as more specific, in which case when divine word says "killed instantly", or power word kill says "it dies", then the troll dies, regardless of how it would die during "normal" combat (i.e. not when subjected to high level spells that bypass the usual means of killing). Or you could treat the monster ability as more specific, in which case the troll does not die.
The Specific Beats General section from the PHB, pg. 7, states:
[M]any racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.
...
Magic accounts for most of the major exceptions to the rules.
This shows that both spells and monster ability could be thought of as being more specific, and doesn't really help us to adjudicate which is more specific in this example.
answered 55 mins ago
NathanS
16.4k471175
It's unclear which is more specific
This is a case where it's not clear which specific rule beats the general rule, since it's not clear which rule is "more specific". In this case the rules are:
- The normal general rules by which a creature dies;
- The specific rules by which the troll dies;
- The specific spell's rules that override how a creature dies;
Clearly the least specific answer is at the top, but which of the next two rules takes precedence?
Therefore, you could either treat the last one as more specific, in which case when divine word says "killed instantly", or power word kill says "it dies", then the troll dies, regardless of how it would die during "normal" combat (i.e. not when subjected to high level spells that bypass the usual means of killing). Or you could treat the monster ability as more specific, in which case the troll does not die.
The Specific Beats General section from the PHB, pg. 7, states:
[M]any racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.
...
Magic accounts for most of the major exceptions to the rules.
This shows that both spells and monster ability could be thought of as being more specific, and doesn't really help us to adjudicate which is more specific in this example.
answered 55 mins ago
NathanS
16.4k471175
edited 14 mins ago
answered 55 mins ago
NathanS
16.4k471175
answered 55 mins ago
NathanS
16.4k471175
answered 55 mins ago
NathanS
16.4k471175
16.4k471175
4
How do you justify the spell's rule being more specific than the troll's rule? Without a justification, this answer is just "this is how I'd rule it".
– kviiri
51 mins ago
Yeah, this just as easily could be the other way around.
– mattdm
47 mins ago
Specific beats general alone doesn't usually support a stance since it's debatable what is more specific. I suggest finding more rigorous justification.
– doppelgreener♦
31 mins ago
I honestly don't understand the counter argument against this... if the troll is truly "killed" prior to its turn it doesn't start at 0hp because it is no longer really a troll (it is a corpse) therefore doesn't have the regeneration feature anymore than a table would have it.
– Slagmoth
17 mins ago
1
It seems we had the same conclusion, then.
– Carcer
9 mins ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
4
How do you justify the spell's rule being more specific than the troll's rule? Without a justification, this answer is just "this is how I'd rule it".
– kviiri
51 mins ago
Yeah, this just as easily could be the other way around.
– mattdm
47 mins ago
Specific beats general alone doesn't usually support a stance since it's debatable what is more specific. I suggest finding more rigorous justification.
– doppelgreener♦
31 mins ago
I honestly don't understand the counter argument against this... if the troll is truly "killed" prior to its turn it doesn't start at 0hp because it is no longer really a troll (it is a corpse) therefore doesn't have the regeneration feature anymore than a table would have it.
– Slagmoth
17 mins ago
1
It seems we had the same conclusion, then.
– Carcer
9 mins ago
4
4
How do you justify the spell's rule being more specific than the troll's rule? Without a justification, this answer is just "this is how I'd rule it".
– kviiri
51 mins ago
How do you justify the spell's rule being more specific than the troll's rule? Without a justification, this answer is just "this is how I'd rule it".
– kviiri
51 mins ago
Yeah, this just as easily could be the other way around.
– mattdm
47 mins ago
Yeah, this just as easily could be the other way around.
– mattdm
47 mins ago
Specific beats general alone doesn't usually support a stance since it's debatable what is more specific. I suggest finding more rigorous justification.
– doppelgreener♦
31 mins ago
Specific beats general alone doesn't usually support a stance since it's debatable what is more specific. I suggest finding more rigorous justification.
– doppelgreener♦
31 mins ago
I honestly don't understand the counter argument against this... if the troll is truly "killed" prior to its turn it doesn't start at 0hp because it is no longer really a troll (it is a corpse) therefore doesn't have the regeneration feature anymore than a table would have it.
– Slagmoth
17 mins ago
I honestly don't understand the counter argument against this... if the troll is truly "killed" prior to its turn it doesn't start at 0hp because it is no longer really a troll (it is a corpse) therefore doesn't have the regeneration feature anymore than a table would have it.
– Slagmoth
17 mins ago
1
1
It seems we had the same conclusion, then.
– Carcer
9 mins ago
It seems we had the same conclusion, then.
– Carcer
9 mins ago
 |Â
show 2 more comments
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