Does using a laptop riser help make workplace more ergonomic? [closed]
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I use a laptop (a 13-inch Macbook Pro) for my daily programming work. I've faced some back problems in the past, which I currently address through stretching exercises (via yoga). Is there a way to modify my environment to improve the ergonomics of using a laptop all day? Have laptop risers been found to help with this as claimed in this article?
I understand a caveat that comes with the use of a laptop riser is that you have to use an external mouse. How do the ergonomics of stand + external mouse compare to those of a plain laptop? It would be nice to hear what health benefits did you get by using a laptop with a riser. This will help me decide if it's really worth to get one(although I do understand it might not give me all the benefits that it might give another).
health ergonomics
closed as primarily opinion-based by alroc, gnat, Jan Doggen, Garrison Neely, IDrinkandIKnowThings Dec 29 '14 at 14:52
Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
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up vote
3
down vote
favorite
I use a laptop (a 13-inch Macbook Pro) for my daily programming work. I've faced some back problems in the past, which I currently address through stretching exercises (via yoga). Is there a way to modify my environment to improve the ergonomics of using a laptop all day? Have laptop risers been found to help with this as claimed in this article?
I understand a caveat that comes with the use of a laptop riser is that you have to use an external mouse. How do the ergonomics of stand + external mouse compare to those of a plain laptop? It would be nice to hear what health benefits did you get by using a laptop with a riser. This will help me decide if it's really worth to get one(although I do understand it might not give me all the benefits that it might give another).
health ergonomics
closed as primarily opinion-based by alroc, gnat, Jan Doggen, Garrison Neely, IDrinkandIKnowThings Dec 29 '14 at 14:52
Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
5
A riser may work for one person but not another. You need to find what works for your desk, your computer, and your body. There is no "one size fits all" answer here.
– alroc
Dec 28 '14 at 1:17
boddhisattva welcome to The Workplace. I've made a fairly major edit to your question to focus it on something that we can answer rather than an opinion survey. If I've misunderstood you please feel free to edit further. Please check out our short tour for more about the kinds of questions we're looking for here. Thanks.
– Monica Cellio♦
Dec 28 '14 at 4:01
Monica, Thanks for having me on this forum. I've edited the question a bit further. Hope it doesn't sound like an opinion survey with my edits. I shall go through the tour, thanks for pointing me to that.
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 6:43
@alroc I understand where you're coming from. I've edited the question a bit. I'd like to know the benefits if in case you've experienced any with the riser. It'll help me decide whether it's worth getting one or not. Thanks
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 6:45
1
You are using a 13" computer for programming? I hope you have an external keyboard and monitor plugged in? If not, I'd say that should be your first buy.
– Fredrik
Dec 29 '14 at 7:56
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
I use a laptop (a 13-inch Macbook Pro) for my daily programming work. I've faced some back problems in the past, which I currently address through stretching exercises (via yoga). Is there a way to modify my environment to improve the ergonomics of using a laptop all day? Have laptop risers been found to help with this as claimed in this article?
I understand a caveat that comes with the use of a laptop riser is that you have to use an external mouse. How do the ergonomics of stand + external mouse compare to those of a plain laptop? It would be nice to hear what health benefits did you get by using a laptop with a riser. This will help me decide if it's really worth to get one(although I do understand it might not give me all the benefits that it might give another).
health ergonomics
I use a laptop (a 13-inch Macbook Pro) for my daily programming work. I've faced some back problems in the past, which I currently address through stretching exercises (via yoga). Is there a way to modify my environment to improve the ergonomics of using a laptop all day? Have laptop risers been found to help with this as claimed in this article?
I understand a caveat that comes with the use of a laptop riser is that you have to use an external mouse. How do the ergonomics of stand + external mouse compare to those of a plain laptop? It would be nice to hear what health benefits did you get by using a laptop with a riser. This will help me decide if it's really worth to get one(although I do understand it might not give me all the benefits that it might give another).
health ergonomics
edited Dec 28 '14 at 6:40
asked Dec 28 '14 at 0:52
boddhisattva
1485
1485
closed as primarily opinion-based by alroc, gnat, Jan Doggen, Garrison Neely, IDrinkandIKnowThings Dec 29 '14 at 14:52
Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
closed as primarily opinion-based by alroc, gnat, Jan Doggen, Garrison Neely, IDrinkandIKnowThings Dec 29 '14 at 14:52
Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question.
5
A riser may work for one person but not another. You need to find what works for your desk, your computer, and your body. There is no "one size fits all" answer here.
– alroc
Dec 28 '14 at 1:17
boddhisattva welcome to The Workplace. I've made a fairly major edit to your question to focus it on something that we can answer rather than an opinion survey. If I've misunderstood you please feel free to edit further. Please check out our short tour for more about the kinds of questions we're looking for here. Thanks.
– Monica Cellio♦
Dec 28 '14 at 4:01
Monica, Thanks for having me on this forum. I've edited the question a bit further. Hope it doesn't sound like an opinion survey with my edits. I shall go through the tour, thanks for pointing me to that.
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 6:43
@alroc I understand where you're coming from. I've edited the question a bit. I'd like to know the benefits if in case you've experienced any with the riser. It'll help me decide whether it's worth getting one or not. Thanks
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 6:45
1
You are using a 13" computer for programming? I hope you have an external keyboard and monitor plugged in? If not, I'd say that should be your first buy.
– Fredrik
Dec 29 '14 at 7:56
 |Â
show 1 more comment
5
A riser may work for one person but not another. You need to find what works for your desk, your computer, and your body. There is no "one size fits all" answer here.
– alroc
Dec 28 '14 at 1:17
boddhisattva welcome to The Workplace. I've made a fairly major edit to your question to focus it on something that we can answer rather than an opinion survey. If I've misunderstood you please feel free to edit further. Please check out our short tour for more about the kinds of questions we're looking for here. Thanks.
– Monica Cellio♦
Dec 28 '14 at 4:01
Monica, Thanks for having me on this forum. I've edited the question a bit further. Hope it doesn't sound like an opinion survey with my edits. I shall go through the tour, thanks for pointing me to that.
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 6:43
@alroc I understand where you're coming from. I've edited the question a bit. I'd like to know the benefits if in case you've experienced any with the riser. It'll help me decide whether it's worth getting one or not. Thanks
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 6:45
1
You are using a 13" computer for programming? I hope you have an external keyboard and monitor plugged in? If not, I'd say that should be your first buy.
– Fredrik
Dec 29 '14 at 7:56
5
5
A riser may work for one person but not another. You need to find what works for your desk, your computer, and your body. There is no "one size fits all" answer here.
– alroc
Dec 28 '14 at 1:17
A riser may work for one person but not another. You need to find what works for your desk, your computer, and your body. There is no "one size fits all" answer here.
– alroc
Dec 28 '14 at 1:17
boddhisattva welcome to The Workplace. I've made a fairly major edit to your question to focus it on something that we can answer rather than an opinion survey. If I've misunderstood you please feel free to edit further. Please check out our short tour for more about the kinds of questions we're looking for here. Thanks.
– Monica Cellio♦
Dec 28 '14 at 4:01
boddhisattva welcome to The Workplace. I've made a fairly major edit to your question to focus it on something that we can answer rather than an opinion survey. If I've misunderstood you please feel free to edit further. Please check out our short tour for more about the kinds of questions we're looking for here. Thanks.
– Monica Cellio♦
Dec 28 '14 at 4:01
Monica, Thanks for having me on this forum. I've edited the question a bit further. Hope it doesn't sound like an opinion survey with my edits. I shall go through the tour, thanks for pointing me to that.
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 6:43
Monica, Thanks for having me on this forum. I've edited the question a bit further. Hope it doesn't sound like an opinion survey with my edits. I shall go through the tour, thanks for pointing me to that.
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 6:43
@alroc I understand where you're coming from. I've edited the question a bit. I'd like to know the benefits if in case you've experienced any with the riser. It'll help me decide whether it's worth getting one or not. Thanks
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 6:45
@alroc I understand where you're coming from. I've edited the question a bit. I'd like to know the benefits if in case you've experienced any with the riser. It'll help me decide whether it's worth getting one or not. Thanks
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 6:45
1
1
You are using a 13" computer for programming? I hope you have an external keyboard and monitor plugged in? If not, I'd say that should be your first buy.
– Fredrik
Dec 29 '14 at 7:56
You are using a 13" computer for programming? I hope you have an external keyboard and monitor plugged in? If not, I'd say that should be your first buy.
– Fredrik
Dec 29 '14 at 7:56
 |Â
show 1 more comment
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
0
down vote
accepted
A riser will help your ergonomics if you can't otherwise position the display and keyboard in such a way that they are comfortable/proper.
The presence of the riser will not magically make your setup "more ergonomic." It's quite possible to have the wrong riser setup continue or even cause new/worse problems.
The only way to know for certain is to try it with your work space. If you have a plug-in keyboard, you can use a stack of books, reams of papers, or even cardboard boxes to change the positioning of your laptop display. Or get an external display and get that set up to the appropriate height/position.
1
the OP has a laptop not a workstation which is the problem laptops always have much worse ergonomics than a desk top its also not economically efficient to pay the premium for laptops if they spend 99% of the time on a desk.
– Pepone
Dec 28 '14 at 15:11
Workstation meaning desk/cubicle/office space including chair.
– alroc
Dec 28 '14 at 15:12
@alroc - Thanks for pointing ways to try this. I see that even Jeanne(the other user who answered this question) uses a similar setup. It would be nice if you'd add more of your experience to your answer(it could probably just give me more pointers) as to what worked for you. I'd accept your answer as you brought up the point about using books first as a way of trying things out to start with. Thanks.
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 23:55
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Laptops are poor for ergnomics. It's not possible to be at a good position for both keyboard/mouse and screen. This is why people often have to hunch down to use them. They are trying to properly position for keyboard/mouse. (Which I don't feel like I can achieve on a desk - I use a keyboard tray).
But presuming you do achieve a good position for keyboard/mouse, you are now way to low for your back/neck to look at the screen. A laptop riser alone can make the neck angle better. But then the laptop is to high for the keyboard/mouse. You should use an external keyboard and not just an external mouse.
At home, I have the following setup:
- Keyboard tray with external keyboard and mouse. This is lower than the desk so a comfortable position to type.
- My Mac laptop on top of a stack of three telephone books. (A telephone book is about the same thickness as a computer book.
- An external monitor at the same height as the top of the laptop.
That's an interesting point that you brought up. I can try this with a set of books first and see if I find a difference and then this can help me decide whether getting a riser would be really helpful or not. Yep, we'd need an external keyboard too, it's my bad that I forgot mentioning it in the question. Thanks for the wonderful insights as to what's your current setup and what works for you, +1 .
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 23:49
suggest improvements |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
0
down vote
accepted
A riser will help your ergonomics if you can't otherwise position the display and keyboard in such a way that they are comfortable/proper.
The presence of the riser will not magically make your setup "more ergonomic." It's quite possible to have the wrong riser setup continue or even cause new/worse problems.
The only way to know for certain is to try it with your work space. If you have a plug-in keyboard, you can use a stack of books, reams of papers, or even cardboard boxes to change the positioning of your laptop display. Or get an external display and get that set up to the appropriate height/position.
1
the OP has a laptop not a workstation which is the problem laptops always have much worse ergonomics than a desk top its also not economically efficient to pay the premium for laptops if they spend 99% of the time on a desk.
– Pepone
Dec 28 '14 at 15:11
Workstation meaning desk/cubicle/office space including chair.
– alroc
Dec 28 '14 at 15:12
@alroc - Thanks for pointing ways to try this. I see that even Jeanne(the other user who answered this question) uses a similar setup. It would be nice if you'd add more of your experience to your answer(it could probably just give me more pointers) as to what worked for you. I'd accept your answer as you brought up the point about using books first as a way of trying things out to start with. Thanks.
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 23:55
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
0
down vote
accepted
A riser will help your ergonomics if you can't otherwise position the display and keyboard in such a way that they are comfortable/proper.
The presence of the riser will not magically make your setup "more ergonomic." It's quite possible to have the wrong riser setup continue or even cause new/worse problems.
The only way to know for certain is to try it with your work space. If you have a plug-in keyboard, you can use a stack of books, reams of papers, or even cardboard boxes to change the positioning of your laptop display. Or get an external display and get that set up to the appropriate height/position.
1
the OP has a laptop not a workstation which is the problem laptops always have much worse ergonomics than a desk top its also not economically efficient to pay the premium for laptops if they spend 99% of the time on a desk.
– Pepone
Dec 28 '14 at 15:11
Workstation meaning desk/cubicle/office space including chair.
– alroc
Dec 28 '14 at 15:12
@alroc - Thanks for pointing ways to try this. I see that even Jeanne(the other user who answered this question) uses a similar setup. It would be nice if you'd add more of your experience to your answer(it could probably just give me more pointers) as to what worked for you. I'd accept your answer as you brought up the point about using books first as a way of trying things out to start with. Thanks.
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 23:55
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
0
down vote
accepted
up vote
0
down vote
accepted
A riser will help your ergonomics if you can't otherwise position the display and keyboard in such a way that they are comfortable/proper.
The presence of the riser will not magically make your setup "more ergonomic." It's quite possible to have the wrong riser setup continue or even cause new/worse problems.
The only way to know for certain is to try it with your work space. If you have a plug-in keyboard, you can use a stack of books, reams of papers, or even cardboard boxes to change the positioning of your laptop display. Or get an external display and get that set up to the appropriate height/position.
A riser will help your ergonomics if you can't otherwise position the display and keyboard in such a way that they are comfortable/proper.
The presence of the riser will not magically make your setup "more ergonomic." It's quite possible to have the wrong riser setup continue or even cause new/worse problems.
The only way to know for certain is to try it with your work space. If you have a plug-in keyboard, you can use a stack of books, reams of papers, or even cardboard boxes to change the positioning of your laptop display. Or get an external display and get that set up to the appropriate height/position.
edited Dec 28 '14 at 15:13
answered Dec 28 '14 at 14:54
alroc
12.8k23954
12.8k23954
1
the OP has a laptop not a workstation which is the problem laptops always have much worse ergonomics than a desk top its also not economically efficient to pay the premium for laptops if they spend 99% of the time on a desk.
– Pepone
Dec 28 '14 at 15:11
Workstation meaning desk/cubicle/office space including chair.
– alroc
Dec 28 '14 at 15:12
@alroc - Thanks for pointing ways to try this. I see that even Jeanne(the other user who answered this question) uses a similar setup. It would be nice if you'd add more of your experience to your answer(it could probably just give me more pointers) as to what worked for you. I'd accept your answer as you brought up the point about using books first as a way of trying things out to start with. Thanks.
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 23:55
suggest improvements |Â
1
the OP has a laptop not a workstation which is the problem laptops always have much worse ergonomics than a desk top its also not economically efficient to pay the premium for laptops if they spend 99% of the time on a desk.
– Pepone
Dec 28 '14 at 15:11
Workstation meaning desk/cubicle/office space including chair.
– alroc
Dec 28 '14 at 15:12
@alroc - Thanks for pointing ways to try this. I see that even Jeanne(the other user who answered this question) uses a similar setup. It would be nice if you'd add more of your experience to your answer(it could probably just give me more pointers) as to what worked for you. I'd accept your answer as you brought up the point about using books first as a way of trying things out to start with. Thanks.
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 23:55
1
1
the OP has a laptop not a workstation which is the problem laptops always have much worse ergonomics than a desk top its also not economically efficient to pay the premium for laptops if they spend 99% of the time on a desk.
– Pepone
Dec 28 '14 at 15:11
the OP has a laptop not a workstation which is the problem laptops always have much worse ergonomics than a desk top its also not economically efficient to pay the premium for laptops if they spend 99% of the time on a desk.
– Pepone
Dec 28 '14 at 15:11
Workstation meaning desk/cubicle/office space including chair.
– alroc
Dec 28 '14 at 15:12
Workstation meaning desk/cubicle/office space including chair.
– alroc
Dec 28 '14 at 15:12
@alroc - Thanks for pointing ways to try this. I see that even Jeanne(the other user who answered this question) uses a similar setup. It would be nice if you'd add more of your experience to your answer(it could probably just give me more pointers) as to what worked for you. I'd accept your answer as you brought up the point about using books first as a way of trying things out to start with. Thanks.
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 23:55
@alroc - Thanks for pointing ways to try this. I see that even Jeanne(the other user who answered this question) uses a similar setup. It would be nice if you'd add more of your experience to your answer(it could probably just give me more pointers) as to what worked for you. I'd accept your answer as you brought up the point about using books first as a way of trying things out to start with. Thanks.
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 23:55
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Laptops are poor for ergnomics. It's not possible to be at a good position for both keyboard/mouse and screen. This is why people often have to hunch down to use them. They are trying to properly position for keyboard/mouse. (Which I don't feel like I can achieve on a desk - I use a keyboard tray).
But presuming you do achieve a good position for keyboard/mouse, you are now way to low for your back/neck to look at the screen. A laptop riser alone can make the neck angle better. But then the laptop is to high for the keyboard/mouse. You should use an external keyboard and not just an external mouse.
At home, I have the following setup:
- Keyboard tray with external keyboard and mouse. This is lower than the desk so a comfortable position to type.
- My Mac laptop on top of a stack of three telephone books. (A telephone book is about the same thickness as a computer book.
- An external monitor at the same height as the top of the laptop.
That's an interesting point that you brought up. I can try this with a set of books first and see if I find a difference and then this can help me decide whether getting a riser would be really helpful or not. Yep, we'd need an external keyboard too, it's my bad that I forgot mentioning it in the question. Thanks for the wonderful insights as to what's your current setup and what works for you, +1 .
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 23:49
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Laptops are poor for ergnomics. It's not possible to be at a good position for both keyboard/mouse and screen. This is why people often have to hunch down to use them. They are trying to properly position for keyboard/mouse. (Which I don't feel like I can achieve on a desk - I use a keyboard tray).
But presuming you do achieve a good position for keyboard/mouse, you are now way to low for your back/neck to look at the screen. A laptop riser alone can make the neck angle better. But then the laptop is to high for the keyboard/mouse. You should use an external keyboard and not just an external mouse.
At home, I have the following setup:
- Keyboard tray with external keyboard and mouse. This is lower than the desk so a comfortable position to type.
- My Mac laptop on top of a stack of three telephone books. (A telephone book is about the same thickness as a computer book.
- An external monitor at the same height as the top of the laptop.
That's an interesting point that you brought up. I can try this with a set of books first and see if I find a difference and then this can help me decide whether getting a riser would be really helpful or not. Yep, we'd need an external keyboard too, it's my bad that I forgot mentioning it in the question. Thanks for the wonderful insights as to what's your current setup and what works for you, +1 .
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 23:49
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Laptops are poor for ergnomics. It's not possible to be at a good position for both keyboard/mouse and screen. This is why people often have to hunch down to use them. They are trying to properly position for keyboard/mouse. (Which I don't feel like I can achieve on a desk - I use a keyboard tray).
But presuming you do achieve a good position for keyboard/mouse, you are now way to low for your back/neck to look at the screen. A laptop riser alone can make the neck angle better. But then the laptop is to high for the keyboard/mouse. You should use an external keyboard and not just an external mouse.
At home, I have the following setup:
- Keyboard tray with external keyboard and mouse. This is lower than the desk so a comfortable position to type.
- My Mac laptop on top of a stack of three telephone books. (A telephone book is about the same thickness as a computer book.
- An external monitor at the same height as the top of the laptop.
Laptops are poor for ergnomics. It's not possible to be at a good position for both keyboard/mouse and screen. This is why people often have to hunch down to use them. They are trying to properly position for keyboard/mouse. (Which I don't feel like I can achieve on a desk - I use a keyboard tray).
But presuming you do achieve a good position for keyboard/mouse, you are now way to low for your back/neck to look at the screen. A laptop riser alone can make the neck angle better. But then the laptop is to high for the keyboard/mouse. You should use an external keyboard and not just an external mouse.
At home, I have the following setup:
- Keyboard tray with external keyboard and mouse. This is lower than the desk so a comfortable position to type.
- My Mac laptop on top of a stack of three telephone books. (A telephone book is about the same thickness as a computer book.
- An external monitor at the same height as the top of the laptop.
answered Dec 28 '14 at 20:36
Jeanne Boyarsky
4,7741934
4,7741934
That's an interesting point that you brought up. I can try this with a set of books first and see if I find a difference and then this can help me decide whether getting a riser would be really helpful or not. Yep, we'd need an external keyboard too, it's my bad that I forgot mentioning it in the question. Thanks for the wonderful insights as to what's your current setup and what works for you, +1 .
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 23:49
suggest improvements |Â
That's an interesting point that you brought up. I can try this with a set of books first and see if I find a difference and then this can help me decide whether getting a riser would be really helpful or not. Yep, we'd need an external keyboard too, it's my bad that I forgot mentioning it in the question. Thanks for the wonderful insights as to what's your current setup and what works for you, +1 .
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 23:49
That's an interesting point that you brought up. I can try this with a set of books first and see if I find a difference and then this can help me decide whether getting a riser would be really helpful or not. Yep, we'd need an external keyboard too, it's my bad that I forgot mentioning it in the question. Thanks for the wonderful insights as to what's your current setup and what works for you, +1 .
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 23:49
That's an interesting point that you brought up. I can try this with a set of books first and see if I find a difference and then this can help me decide whether getting a riser would be really helpful or not. Yep, we'd need an external keyboard too, it's my bad that I forgot mentioning it in the question. Thanks for the wonderful insights as to what's your current setup and what works for you, +1 .
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 23:49
suggest improvements |Â
5
A riser may work for one person but not another. You need to find what works for your desk, your computer, and your body. There is no "one size fits all" answer here.
– alroc
Dec 28 '14 at 1:17
boddhisattva welcome to The Workplace. I've made a fairly major edit to your question to focus it on something that we can answer rather than an opinion survey. If I've misunderstood you please feel free to edit further. Please check out our short tour for more about the kinds of questions we're looking for here. Thanks.
– Monica Cellio♦
Dec 28 '14 at 4:01
Monica, Thanks for having me on this forum. I've edited the question a bit further. Hope it doesn't sound like an opinion survey with my edits. I shall go through the tour, thanks for pointing me to that.
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 6:43
@alroc I understand where you're coming from. I've edited the question a bit. I'd like to know the benefits if in case you've experienced any with the riser. It'll help me decide whether it's worth getting one or not. Thanks
– boddhisattva
Dec 28 '14 at 6:45
1
You are using a 13" computer for programming? I hope you have an external keyboard and monitor plugged in? If not, I'd say that should be your first buy.
– Fredrik
Dec 29 '14 at 7:56