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How do you give a reference when a previous boss was a bully?
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I have been in IT and Project Management for a long time, but when I have to give references for background checks (federal and commercial) they want previous managers. I have two instances where I was hired by one manager that I really liked, then was moved to a different project or a manager quit and I got stuck with bullies. If they didn't hire you, they hated you or made your life miserable. How do you give them as a reference or explain why you don't want to without sounding like a "problem" employee?
references
edited Jul 25 '12 at 19:13
Rarity
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asked Jul 24 '12 at 22:51
jsp
134124
migrated from pm.stackexchange.com Jul 25 '12 at 14:46
This question came from our site for project managers.
add a comment |Â
up vote
25
down vote
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I have been in IT and Project Management for a long time, but when I have to give references for background checks (federal and commercial) they want previous managers. I have two instances where I was hired by one manager that I really liked, then was moved to a different project or a manager quit and I got stuck with bullies. If they didn't hire you, they hated you or made your life miserable. How do you give them as a reference or explain why you don't want to without sounding like a "problem" employee?
references
edited Jul 25 '12 at 19:13
Rarity
4,37643457
asked Jul 24 '12 at 22:51
jsp
134124
migrated from pm.stackexchange.com Jul 25 '12 at 14:46
This question came from our site for project managers.
4
As a related comment and not so much an answer, when you're just being asked to provide references to verify proof of employment, you can sidestep the issue of getting something from someone with whom you have a bad relationship, by giving contact information for the company's HR. That won't work for personal references, of course (unless you actually work in HR :) ).
– jcmeloni
Jul 25 '12 at 17:15
2
And perssonal references are almost never bosses
– HLGEM
Jul 25 '12 at 18:23
4
Professional references should come from people you've worked with. It wouldn't occur to me to provide a reference from any former co-worker I didn't respect. In the United States if a manager gives a poor reference for a former employee he or she opens themselves up to serious lawsuit. That's why most medium and large companies will only confirm or deny employment of former employees, and prohibit anything 'judgmental' beyond a yes or no answer to the question 'is this former employee eligible for rehire?' .
– Jim In Texas
Jul 25 '12 at 20:40
add a comment |Â
up vote
25
down vote
favorite
up vote
25
down vote
favorite
I have been in IT and Project Management for a long time, but when I have to give references for background checks (federal and commercial) they want previous managers. I have two instances where I was hired by one manager that I really liked, then was moved to a different project or a manager quit and I got stuck with bullies. If they didn't hire you, they hated you or made your life miserable. How do you give them as a reference or explain why you don't want to without sounding like a "problem" employee?
references
edited Jul 25 '12 at 19:13
Rarity
4,37643457
asked Jul 24 '12 at 22:51
jsp
134124
I have been in IT and Project Management for a long time, but when I have to give references for background checks (federal and commercial) they want previous managers. I have two instances where I was hired by one manager that I really liked, then was moved to a different project or a manager quit and I got stuck with bullies. If they didn't hire you, they hated you or made your life miserable. How do you give them as a reference or explain why you don't want to without sounding like a "problem" employee?
references
edited Jul 25 '12 at 19:13
Rarity
4,37643457
asked Jul 24 '12 at 22:51
jsp
134124
edited Jul 25 '12 at 19:13
Rarity
4,37643457
edited Jul 25 '12 at 19:13
Rarity
4,37643457
edited Jul 25 '12 at 19:13
Rarity
4,37643457
4,37643457
asked Jul 24 '12 at 22:51
jsp
134124
asked Jul 24 '12 at 22:51
jsp
134124
asked Jul 24 '12 at 22:51
jsp
134124
134124
migrated from pm.stackexchange.com Jul 25 '12 at 14:46
This question came from our site for project managers.
migrated from pm.stackexchange.com Jul 25 '12 at 14:46
This question came from our site for project managers.
4
As a related comment and not so much an answer, when you're just being asked to provide references to verify proof of employment, you can sidestep the issue of getting something from someone with whom you have a bad relationship, by giving contact information for the company's HR. That won't work for personal references, of course (unless you actually work in HR :) ).
– jcmeloni
Jul 25 '12 at 17:15
2
And perssonal references are almost never bosses
– HLGEM
Jul 25 '12 at 18:23
4
Professional references should come from people you've worked with. It wouldn't occur to me to provide a reference from any former co-worker I didn't respect. In the United States if a manager gives a poor reference for a former employee he or she opens themselves up to serious lawsuit. That's why most medium and large companies will only confirm or deny employment of former employees, and prohibit anything 'judgmental' beyond a yes or no answer to the question 'is this former employee eligible for rehire?' .
– Jim In Texas
Jul 25 '12 at 20:40
add a comment |Â
4
As a related comment and not so much an answer, when you're just being asked to provide references to verify proof of employment, you can sidestep the issue of getting something from someone with whom you have a bad relationship, by giving contact information for the company's HR. That won't work for personal references, of course (unless you actually work in HR :) ).
– jcmeloni
Jul 25 '12 at 17:15
2
And perssonal references are almost never bosses
– HLGEM
Jul 25 '12 at 18:23
4
Professional references should come from people you've worked with. It wouldn't occur to me to provide a reference from any former co-worker I didn't respect. In the United States if a manager gives a poor reference for a former employee he or she opens themselves up to serious lawsuit. That's why most medium and large companies will only confirm or deny employment of former employees, and prohibit anything 'judgmental' beyond a yes or no answer to the question 'is this former employee eligible for rehire?' .
– Jim In Texas
Jul 25 '12 at 20:40
4
4
As a related comment and not so much an answer, when you're just being asked to provide references to verify proof of employment, you can sidestep the issue of getting something from someone with whom you have a bad relationship, by giving contact information for the company's HR. That won't work for personal references, of course (unless you actually work in HR :) ).
– jcmeloni
Jul 25 '12 at 17:15
As a related comment and not so much an answer, when you're just being asked to provide references to verify proof of employment, you can sidestep the issue of getting something from someone with whom you have a bad relationship, by giving contact information for the company's HR. That won't work for personal references, of course (unless you actually work in HR :) ).
– jcmeloni
Jul 25 '12 at 17:15
2
2
And perssonal references are almost never bosses
– HLGEM
Jul 25 '12 at 18:23
And perssonal references are almost never bosses
– HLGEM
Jul 25 '12 at 18:23
4
4
Professional references should come from people you've worked with. It wouldn't occur to me to provide a reference from any former co-worker I didn't respect. In the United States if a manager gives a poor reference for a former employee he or she opens themselves up to serious lawsuit. That's why most medium and large companies will only confirm or deny employment of former employees, and prohibit anything 'judgmental' beyond a yes or no answer to the question 'is this former employee eligible for rehire?' .
– Jim In Texas
Jul 25 '12 at 20:40
Professional references should come from people you've worked with. It wouldn't occur to me to provide a reference from any former co-worker I didn't respect. In the United States if a manager gives a poor reference for a former employee he or she opens themselves up to serious lawsuit. That's why most medium and large companies will only confirm or deny employment of former employees, and prohibit anything 'judgmental' beyond a yes or no answer to the question 'is this former employee eligible for rehire?' .
– Jim In Texas
Jul 25 '12 at 20:40
add a comment |Â
5 Answers
5
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oldest
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up vote
8
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It depends on the type of background check. Generally the ones for the US Government do not care if your manager recommends you. They care if you worked there during the period you claimed you worked there. They also do not care if you have a mistress that you are providing for so long as you tell them about it. If it is not illegal do not hide it from them.
They are looking for inconsistencies that make you untrustworthy. For this reason I provide them with the name of my manager, and the name and number of the HR Manager. The HR Manager can verify your employment and if you are eligible for rehire. Unless you were terminated because of a safety or fraud risk you are probably fine.
This is not true of all back ground checks just those done for employment with the Government. This also applies for access to protected facilities and general secret clearance but I have heard it gets stricter if you are doing area 51 or NSA type stuff though I have no personal verification of that.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 17:01
IDrinkandIKnowThings
43.9k1398188
This was the most applicable to my situation since one of my concerns was getting a security clearance for the government where they do in-depth background and reference checks. The "bully" label was uttered by my co-worker and it described the situation perfectly. Especially when serious threats are made by them....what else would you call them?
– jsp
Jul 27 '12 at 1:00
@jsp - Yep some bullies never grow up. Once you are past it on to the next position future employers will not really care about what this boss thought of you anyway. Its all about what you have done lately on the personal side. Dont sweat it too much. What ever you do never bad mouth your that boss to a prospective employer.
– IDrinkandIKnowThings
Jul 30 '12 at 12:53
@jsp: The security clearance part is very, very likely going to be handled separately, by a dedicated officer. He'll only give a pass/fail decision back to HR. You can therefore communicate any relation difficulties with your previous manager without HR knowing. For a security clearance, your ability to assess relations is not a downside.
– MSalters
Jul 30 '12 at 14:50
add a comment |Â
up vote
15
down vote
Honestly and openly.
I mean one thing is to avoid complaining on your bosses or companies (after all who wants to hire a whiner) but another is honest opinion about your current situation. It doesn't have to, or need to, be put in harsh words. "I don't get on well with my boss" sounds way better than "my boss is a jerk."
A recruiter may or may not ask you to go into details. If they do I'd try to be as objective as possible, even though I know it's almost impossible in such case.
Trying to come up with a story to cover the issue is likely to make the whole thing even worse.
answered Jul 24 '12 at 23:10
Pawel Brodzinski
3,28011220
6
Agreed, I've had bosses like that, and when asked about that job and why I left my answer is something like "we didn't get along, I'd rather not talk about it" And most recruiters respected that. Never hurt my chances at a job. If they ask again for specifics, just reply again with something like "It didn't work out, some people just don't get along. It's in the past, and I'd like to move on, rather than dwell on a bad experience."
– Chad
Jul 25 '12 at 14:16
This was helpful as well. Thank you for the advice.
– jsp
Jul 27 '12 at 1:10
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
1 - verify background check vs. reference check. As Chad said - both US Clearance and many work history checks are done by an external party simply to verify truthfulness and work history. If they are paying for 10 years of experience, then they are verifying you have the 10 years you said you did.
2 - if it's a "background check" and not a character check - then you may also be able to provide a work hotline or access to your HR to verify employment history. Some work places even say that bosses can't answer reference checks for various legal reasons. So if they just want work history, give them what they need. Chances are, it's preferred as they care more about speed than finding a busy manager.
3 - if it's a character check - look for alternatives - how many of your recent managers have been good, and how long did they manage you? Can you give peer references? Or cross-manager references? For example, a manager you worked closely with on another team. Very few places want only "direct reporting" managers - in many cases, they are sensitive to the fact that you want to continue working until you get an offer!
As Pawel said - if you must, state simply, honestly and judgement free that your current not-ideal relationship is a reason you are looking. But avoid sticking to the negative - work to find a reference they can use.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 20:08
bethlakshmi
70.4k4136277
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Give references from people that will speak well of you. List the positions but do not give references for others.
If pushed about it say "we disagreed on some things and had different view points".
If pushed on that try to focus on how you were into things like (say) testing, better communication to the customer, stuff like that that are professional and sounds good. Pick some that are true because most people can't lie well, but they think they can.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 15:43
Michael Durrant
9,68122856
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up vote
-3
down vote
How do you give them as a reference or explain why you don't want to without sounding like a "problem" employee?
You can't because, likely, you are a problem employee. There are certainly bad bosses; in fact, I'd argue most one would encounter would likely lean to that bad boss side. However, the description that they are "bullies", i.e., they are bullying you or you feel bullied, implies something other than they were bad bosses. The perception of being bullied is very interesting and something you should take a serious look at.
They ask for references you gotta give 'em and you're going to get what you are going to get. In the mean time, take a strong, hard look at what you are contributing into the bullying dynamic and start working on changing that. You can't control the boss you are going to have, but you can control you.
Addendum: I knew I was going to get some reaction with my chosen words and possibly some negative votes. But that is exactly this OP's challenge: my drawn assumption--he being a "likely" problem employee--is exactly the assumption many or most or even all hiring managers would draw with the words this OP is using!! Is (s)he a problem employee? Have no earthly idea. But describing being bullied by your bosses--not boss--will not fair well for the OP. And, I'd bet, without knowing him or her, that his or her contribution to that dynamic was quite significant. And his or her contribution is the ONLY piece that she or he can control for the future.
I know it was harsh, but that is what (s)he will likely face secondary to those issues. And one last point: there is something a bit off when a person can identify only external reasons for their problems and hold themselves as victims.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 0:16
David Espina
1,7591012
3
David, I've no idea how you can draw such dramatic conclusions from such a brief posting. I hate down-voting but I'm close with this post.
– gef05
Jul 25 '12 at 2:49
2
@jmort253 Probably true. It's besides the point, but probably true. Just to make the point clear: "You can't because, likely, you are a problem employee." That's what David said, and that's what I'm reacting to.
– gef05
Jul 25 '12 at 3:33
2
+1 because the answer perfectly indicates the way of how HR would think. But the wording can be improved, simply because many would get stuck onyou are a problem employeeand would not read the rest of your answer.
– bytebuster
Jul 25 '12 at 10:44
5
You might want to completely re-write, starting with "HR might assume that you are a 'problem employee' because...", it would be a less inflamatory and less constructive. The claim that there are no bullies in workplaces is simply not true.
– FrustratedWithFormsDesigner
Jul 25 '12 at 16:09
2
Please review this meta post... Much of the exchange in these comments are rude. If you are not offering advise on how to improve the post a downvote is all that is needed. Please clean up your comments.
– IDrinkandIKnowThings
Jul 25 '12 at 18:19
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5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
8
down vote
accepted
It depends on the type of background check. Generally the ones for the US Government do not care if your manager recommends you. They care if you worked there during the period you claimed you worked there. They also do not care if you have a mistress that you are providing for so long as you tell them about it. If it is not illegal do not hide it from them.
They are looking for inconsistencies that make you untrustworthy. For this reason I provide them with the name of my manager, and the name and number of the HR Manager. The HR Manager can verify your employment and if you are eligible for rehire. Unless you were terminated because of a safety or fraud risk you are probably fine.
This is not true of all back ground checks just those done for employment with the Government. This also applies for access to protected facilities and general secret clearance but I have heard it gets stricter if you are doing area 51 or NSA type stuff though I have no personal verification of that.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 17:01
IDrinkandIKnowThings
43.9k1398188
This was the most applicable to my situation since one of my concerns was getting a security clearance for the government where they do in-depth background and reference checks. The "bully" label was uttered by my co-worker and it described the situation perfectly. Especially when serious threats are made by them....what else would you call them?
– jsp
Jul 27 '12 at 1:00
@jsp - Yep some bullies never grow up. Once you are past it on to the next position future employers will not really care about what this boss thought of you anyway. Its all about what you have done lately on the personal side. Dont sweat it too much. What ever you do never bad mouth your that boss to a prospective employer.
– IDrinkandIKnowThings
Jul 30 '12 at 12:53
@jsp: The security clearance part is very, very likely going to be handled separately, by a dedicated officer. He'll only give a pass/fail decision back to HR. You can therefore communicate any relation difficulties with your previous manager without HR knowing. For a security clearance, your ability to assess relations is not a downside.
– MSalters
Jul 30 '12 at 14:50
add a comment |Â
up vote
8
down vote
accepted
It depends on the type of background check. Generally the ones for the US Government do not care if your manager recommends you. They care if you worked there during the period you claimed you worked there. They also do not care if you have a mistress that you are providing for so long as you tell them about it. If it is not illegal do not hide it from them.
They are looking for inconsistencies that make you untrustworthy. For this reason I provide them with the name of my manager, and the name and number of the HR Manager. The HR Manager can verify your employment and if you are eligible for rehire. Unless you were terminated because of a safety or fraud risk you are probably fine.
This is not true of all back ground checks just those done for employment with the Government. This also applies for access to protected facilities and general secret clearance but I have heard it gets stricter if you are doing area 51 or NSA type stuff though I have no personal verification of that.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 17:01
IDrinkandIKnowThings
43.9k1398188
This was the most applicable to my situation since one of my concerns was getting a security clearance for the government where they do in-depth background and reference checks. The "bully" label was uttered by my co-worker and it described the situation perfectly. Especially when serious threats are made by them....what else would you call them?
– jsp
Jul 27 '12 at 1:00
@jsp - Yep some bullies never grow up. Once you are past it on to the next position future employers will not really care about what this boss thought of you anyway. Its all about what you have done lately on the personal side. Dont sweat it too much. What ever you do never bad mouth your that boss to a prospective employer.
– IDrinkandIKnowThings
Jul 30 '12 at 12:53
@jsp: The security clearance part is very, very likely going to be handled separately, by a dedicated officer. He'll only give a pass/fail decision back to HR. You can therefore communicate any relation difficulties with your previous manager without HR knowing. For a security clearance, your ability to assess relations is not a downside.
– MSalters
Jul 30 '12 at 14:50
add a comment |Â
up vote
8
down vote
accepted
up vote
8
down vote
accepted
It depends on the type of background check. Generally the ones for the US Government do not care if your manager recommends you. They care if you worked there during the period you claimed you worked there. They also do not care if you have a mistress that you are providing for so long as you tell them about it. If it is not illegal do not hide it from them.
They are looking for inconsistencies that make you untrustworthy. For this reason I provide them with the name of my manager, and the name and number of the HR Manager. The HR Manager can verify your employment and if you are eligible for rehire. Unless you were terminated because of a safety or fraud risk you are probably fine.
This is not true of all back ground checks just those done for employment with the Government. This also applies for access to protected facilities and general secret clearance but I have heard it gets stricter if you are doing area 51 or NSA type stuff though I have no personal verification of that.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 17:01
IDrinkandIKnowThings
43.9k1398188
It depends on the type of background check. Generally the ones for the US Government do not care if your manager recommends you. They care if you worked there during the period you claimed you worked there. They also do not care if you have a mistress that you are providing for so long as you tell them about it. If it is not illegal do not hide it from them.
They are looking for inconsistencies that make you untrustworthy. For this reason I provide them with the name of my manager, and the name and number of the HR Manager. The HR Manager can verify your employment and if you are eligible for rehire. Unless you were terminated because of a safety or fraud risk you are probably fine.
This is not true of all back ground checks just those done for employment with the Government. This also applies for access to protected facilities and general secret clearance but I have heard it gets stricter if you are doing area 51 or NSA type stuff though I have no personal verification of that.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 17:01
IDrinkandIKnowThings
43.9k1398188
edited Jul 4 '17 at 19:27
answered Jul 25 '12 at 17:01
IDrinkandIKnowThings
43.9k1398188
answered Jul 25 '12 at 17:01
IDrinkandIKnowThings
43.9k1398188
answered Jul 25 '12 at 17:01
IDrinkandIKnowThings
43.9k1398188
43.9k1398188
This was the most applicable to my situation since one of my concerns was getting a security clearance for the government where they do in-depth background and reference checks. The "bully" label was uttered by my co-worker and it described the situation perfectly. Especially when serious threats are made by them....what else would you call them?
– jsp
Jul 27 '12 at 1:00
@jsp - Yep some bullies never grow up. Once you are past it on to the next position future employers will not really care about what this boss thought of you anyway. Its all about what you have done lately on the personal side. Dont sweat it too much. What ever you do never bad mouth your that boss to a prospective employer.
– IDrinkandIKnowThings
Jul 30 '12 at 12:53
@jsp: The security clearance part is very, very likely going to be handled separately, by a dedicated officer. He'll only give a pass/fail decision back to HR. You can therefore communicate any relation difficulties with your previous manager without HR knowing. For a security clearance, your ability to assess relations is not a downside.
– MSalters
Jul 30 '12 at 14:50
add a comment |Â
This was the most applicable to my situation since one of my concerns was getting a security clearance for the government where they do in-depth background and reference checks. The "bully" label was uttered by my co-worker and it described the situation perfectly. Especially when serious threats are made by them....what else would you call them?
– jsp
Jul 27 '12 at 1:00
@jsp - Yep some bullies never grow up. Once you are past it on to the next position future employers will not really care about what this boss thought of you anyway. Its all about what you have done lately on the personal side. Dont sweat it too much. What ever you do never bad mouth your that boss to a prospective employer.
– IDrinkandIKnowThings
Jul 30 '12 at 12:53
@jsp: The security clearance part is very, very likely going to be handled separately, by a dedicated officer. He'll only give a pass/fail decision back to HR. You can therefore communicate any relation difficulties with your previous manager without HR knowing. For a security clearance, your ability to assess relations is not a downside.
– MSalters
Jul 30 '12 at 14:50
This was the most applicable to my situation since one of my concerns was getting a security clearance for the government where they do in-depth background and reference checks. The "bully" label was uttered by my co-worker and it described the situation perfectly. Especially when serious threats are made by them....what else would you call them?
– jsp
Jul 27 '12 at 1:00
This was the most applicable to my situation since one of my concerns was getting a security clearance for the government where they do in-depth background and reference checks. The "bully" label was uttered by my co-worker and it described the situation perfectly. Especially when serious threats are made by them....what else would you call them?
– jsp
Jul 27 '12 at 1:00
@jsp - Yep some bullies never grow up. Once you are past it on to the next position future employers will not really care about what this boss thought of you anyway. Its all about what you have done lately on the personal side. Dont sweat it too much. What ever you do never bad mouth your that boss to a prospective employer.
– IDrinkandIKnowThings
Jul 30 '12 at 12:53
@jsp - Yep some bullies never grow up. Once you are past it on to the next position future employers will not really care about what this boss thought of you anyway. Its all about what you have done lately on the personal side. Dont sweat it too much. What ever you do never bad mouth your that boss to a prospective employer.
– IDrinkandIKnowThings
Jul 30 '12 at 12:53
@jsp: The security clearance part is very, very likely going to be handled separately, by a dedicated officer. He'll only give a pass/fail decision back to HR. You can therefore communicate any relation difficulties with your previous manager without HR knowing. For a security clearance, your ability to assess relations is not a downside.
– MSalters
Jul 30 '12 at 14:50
@jsp: The security clearance part is very, very likely going to be handled separately, by a dedicated officer. He'll only give a pass/fail decision back to HR. You can therefore communicate any relation difficulties with your previous manager without HR knowing. For a security clearance, your ability to assess relations is not a downside.
– MSalters
Jul 30 '12 at 14:50
add a comment |Â
up vote
15
down vote
Honestly and openly.
I mean one thing is to avoid complaining on your bosses or companies (after all who wants to hire a whiner) but another is honest opinion about your current situation. It doesn't have to, or need to, be put in harsh words. "I don't get on well with my boss" sounds way better than "my boss is a jerk."
A recruiter may or may not ask you to go into details. If they do I'd try to be as objective as possible, even though I know it's almost impossible in such case.
Trying to come up with a story to cover the issue is likely to make the whole thing even worse.
answered Jul 24 '12 at 23:10
Pawel Brodzinski
3,28011220
6
Agreed, I've had bosses like that, and when asked about that job and why I left my answer is something like "we didn't get along, I'd rather not talk about it" And most recruiters respected that. Never hurt my chances at a job. If they ask again for specifics, just reply again with something like "It didn't work out, some people just don't get along. It's in the past, and I'd like to move on, rather than dwell on a bad experience."
– Chad
Jul 25 '12 at 14:16
This was helpful as well. Thank you for the advice.
– jsp
Jul 27 '12 at 1:10
add a comment |Â
up vote
15
down vote
Honestly and openly.
I mean one thing is to avoid complaining on your bosses or companies (after all who wants to hire a whiner) but another is honest opinion about your current situation. It doesn't have to, or need to, be put in harsh words. "I don't get on well with my boss" sounds way better than "my boss is a jerk."
A recruiter may or may not ask you to go into details. If they do I'd try to be as objective as possible, even though I know it's almost impossible in such case.
Trying to come up with a story to cover the issue is likely to make the whole thing even worse.
answered Jul 24 '12 at 23:10
Pawel Brodzinski
3,28011220
6
Agreed, I've had bosses like that, and when asked about that job and why I left my answer is something like "we didn't get along, I'd rather not talk about it" And most recruiters respected that. Never hurt my chances at a job. If they ask again for specifics, just reply again with something like "It didn't work out, some people just don't get along. It's in the past, and I'd like to move on, rather than dwell on a bad experience."
– Chad
Jul 25 '12 at 14:16
This was helpful as well. Thank you for the advice.
– jsp
Jul 27 '12 at 1:10
add a comment |Â
up vote
15
down vote
up vote
15
down vote
Honestly and openly.
I mean one thing is to avoid complaining on your bosses or companies (after all who wants to hire a whiner) but another is honest opinion about your current situation. It doesn't have to, or need to, be put in harsh words. "I don't get on well with my boss" sounds way better than "my boss is a jerk."
A recruiter may or may not ask you to go into details. If they do I'd try to be as objective as possible, even though I know it's almost impossible in such case.
Trying to come up with a story to cover the issue is likely to make the whole thing even worse.
answered Jul 24 '12 at 23:10
Pawel Brodzinski
3,28011220
Honestly and openly.
I mean one thing is to avoid complaining on your bosses or companies (after all who wants to hire a whiner) but another is honest opinion about your current situation. It doesn't have to, or need to, be put in harsh words. "I don't get on well with my boss" sounds way better than "my boss is a jerk."
A recruiter may or may not ask you to go into details. If they do I'd try to be as objective as possible, even though I know it's almost impossible in such case.
Trying to come up with a story to cover the issue is likely to make the whole thing even worse.
answered Jul 24 '12 at 23:10
Pawel Brodzinski
3,28011220
answered Jul 24 '12 at 23:10
Pawel Brodzinski
3,28011220
answered Jul 24 '12 at 23:10
Pawel Brodzinski
3,28011220
answered Jul 24 '12 at 23:10
Pawel Brodzinski
3,28011220
3,28011220
6
Agreed, I've had bosses like that, and when asked about that job and why I left my answer is something like "we didn't get along, I'd rather not talk about it" And most recruiters respected that. Never hurt my chances at a job. If they ask again for specifics, just reply again with something like "It didn't work out, some people just don't get along. It's in the past, and I'd like to move on, rather than dwell on a bad experience."
– Chad
Jul 25 '12 at 14:16
This was helpful as well. Thank you for the advice.
– jsp
Jul 27 '12 at 1:10
add a comment |Â
6
Agreed, I've had bosses like that, and when asked about that job and why I left my answer is something like "we didn't get along, I'd rather not talk about it" And most recruiters respected that. Never hurt my chances at a job. If they ask again for specifics, just reply again with something like "It didn't work out, some people just don't get along. It's in the past, and I'd like to move on, rather than dwell on a bad experience."
– Chad
Jul 25 '12 at 14:16
This was helpful as well. Thank you for the advice.
– jsp
Jul 27 '12 at 1:10
6
6
Agreed, I've had bosses like that, and when asked about that job and why I left my answer is something like "we didn't get along, I'd rather not talk about it" And most recruiters respected that. Never hurt my chances at a job. If they ask again for specifics, just reply again with something like "It didn't work out, some people just don't get along. It's in the past, and I'd like to move on, rather than dwell on a bad experience."
– Chad
Jul 25 '12 at 14:16
Agreed, I've had bosses like that, and when asked about that job and why I left my answer is something like "we didn't get along, I'd rather not talk about it" And most recruiters respected that. Never hurt my chances at a job. If they ask again for specifics, just reply again with something like "It didn't work out, some people just don't get along. It's in the past, and I'd like to move on, rather than dwell on a bad experience."
– Chad
Jul 25 '12 at 14:16
This was helpful as well. Thank you for the advice.
– jsp
Jul 27 '12 at 1:10
This was helpful as well. Thank you for the advice.
– jsp
Jul 27 '12 at 1:10
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
1 - verify background check vs. reference check. As Chad said - both US Clearance and many work history checks are done by an external party simply to verify truthfulness and work history. If they are paying for 10 years of experience, then they are verifying you have the 10 years you said you did.
2 - if it's a "background check" and not a character check - then you may also be able to provide a work hotline or access to your HR to verify employment history. Some work places even say that bosses can't answer reference checks for various legal reasons. So if they just want work history, give them what they need. Chances are, it's preferred as they care more about speed than finding a busy manager.
3 - if it's a character check - look for alternatives - how many of your recent managers have been good, and how long did they manage you? Can you give peer references? Or cross-manager references? For example, a manager you worked closely with on another team. Very few places want only "direct reporting" managers - in many cases, they are sensitive to the fact that you want to continue working until you get an offer!
As Pawel said - if you must, state simply, honestly and judgement free that your current not-ideal relationship is a reason you are looking. But avoid sticking to the negative - work to find a reference they can use.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 20:08
bethlakshmi
70.4k4136277
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
1 - verify background check vs. reference check. As Chad said - both US Clearance and many work history checks are done by an external party simply to verify truthfulness and work history. If they are paying for 10 years of experience, then they are verifying you have the 10 years you said you did.
2 - if it's a "background check" and not a character check - then you may also be able to provide a work hotline or access to your HR to verify employment history. Some work places even say that bosses can't answer reference checks for various legal reasons. So if they just want work history, give them what they need. Chances are, it's preferred as they care more about speed than finding a busy manager.
3 - if it's a character check - look for alternatives - how many of your recent managers have been good, and how long did they manage you? Can you give peer references? Or cross-manager references? For example, a manager you worked closely with on another team. Very few places want only "direct reporting" managers - in many cases, they are sensitive to the fact that you want to continue working until you get an offer!
As Pawel said - if you must, state simply, honestly and judgement free that your current not-ideal relationship is a reason you are looking. But avoid sticking to the negative - work to find a reference they can use.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 20:08
bethlakshmi
70.4k4136277
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
up vote
6
down vote
1 - verify background check vs. reference check. As Chad said - both US Clearance and many work history checks are done by an external party simply to verify truthfulness and work history. If they are paying for 10 years of experience, then they are verifying you have the 10 years you said you did.
2 - if it's a "background check" and not a character check - then you may also be able to provide a work hotline or access to your HR to verify employment history. Some work places even say that bosses can't answer reference checks for various legal reasons. So if they just want work history, give them what they need. Chances are, it's preferred as they care more about speed than finding a busy manager.
3 - if it's a character check - look for alternatives - how many of your recent managers have been good, and how long did they manage you? Can you give peer references? Or cross-manager references? For example, a manager you worked closely with on another team. Very few places want only "direct reporting" managers - in many cases, they are sensitive to the fact that you want to continue working until you get an offer!
As Pawel said - if you must, state simply, honestly and judgement free that your current not-ideal relationship is a reason you are looking. But avoid sticking to the negative - work to find a reference they can use.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 20:08
bethlakshmi
70.4k4136277
1 - verify background check vs. reference check. As Chad said - both US Clearance and many work history checks are done by an external party simply to verify truthfulness and work history. If they are paying for 10 years of experience, then they are verifying you have the 10 years you said you did.
2 - if it's a "background check" and not a character check - then you may also be able to provide a work hotline or access to your HR to verify employment history. Some work places even say that bosses can't answer reference checks for various legal reasons. So if they just want work history, give them what they need. Chances are, it's preferred as they care more about speed than finding a busy manager.
3 - if it's a character check - look for alternatives - how many of your recent managers have been good, and how long did they manage you? Can you give peer references? Or cross-manager references? For example, a manager you worked closely with on another team. Very few places want only "direct reporting" managers - in many cases, they are sensitive to the fact that you want to continue working until you get an offer!
As Pawel said - if you must, state simply, honestly and judgement free that your current not-ideal relationship is a reason you are looking. But avoid sticking to the negative - work to find a reference they can use.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 20:08
bethlakshmi
70.4k4136277
answered Jul 25 '12 at 20:08
bethlakshmi
70.4k4136277
answered Jul 25 '12 at 20:08
bethlakshmi
70.4k4136277
answered Jul 25 '12 at 20:08
bethlakshmi
70.4k4136277
70.4k4136277
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Give references from people that will speak well of you. List the positions but do not give references for others.
If pushed about it say "we disagreed on some things and had different view points".
If pushed on that try to focus on how you were into things like (say) testing, better communication to the customer, stuff like that that are professional and sounds good. Pick some that are true because most people can't lie well, but they think they can.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 15:43
Michael Durrant
9,68122856
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Give references from people that will speak well of you. List the positions but do not give references for others.
If pushed about it say "we disagreed on some things and had different view points".
If pushed on that try to focus on how you were into things like (say) testing, better communication to the customer, stuff like that that are professional and sounds good. Pick some that are true because most people can't lie well, but they think they can.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 15:43
Michael Durrant
9,68122856
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Give references from people that will speak well of you. List the positions but do not give references for others.
If pushed about it say "we disagreed on some things and had different view points".
If pushed on that try to focus on how you were into things like (say) testing, better communication to the customer, stuff like that that are professional and sounds good. Pick some that are true because most people can't lie well, but they think they can.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 15:43
Michael Durrant
9,68122856
Give references from people that will speak well of you. List the positions but do not give references for others.
If pushed about it say "we disagreed on some things and had different view points".
If pushed on that try to focus on how you were into things like (say) testing, better communication to the customer, stuff like that that are professional and sounds good. Pick some that are true because most people can't lie well, but they think they can.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 15:43
Michael Durrant
9,68122856
answered Jul 25 '12 at 15:43
Michael Durrant
9,68122856
answered Jul 25 '12 at 15:43
Michael Durrant
9,68122856
answered Jul 25 '12 at 15:43
Michael Durrant
9,68122856
9,68122856
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
-3
down vote
How do you give them as a reference or explain why you don't want to without sounding like a "problem" employee?
You can't because, likely, you are a problem employee. There are certainly bad bosses; in fact, I'd argue most one would encounter would likely lean to that bad boss side. However, the description that they are "bullies", i.e., they are bullying you or you feel bullied, implies something other than they were bad bosses. The perception of being bullied is very interesting and something you should take a serious look at.
They ask for references you gotta give 'em and you're going to get what you are going to get. In the mean time, take a strong, hard look at what you are contributing into the bullying dynamic and start working on changing that. You can't control the boss you are going to have, but you can control you.
Addendum: I knew I was going to get some reaction with my chosen words and possibly some negative votes. But that is exactly this OP's challenge: my drawn assumption--he being a "likely" problem employee--is exactly the assumption many or most or even all hiring managers would draw with the words this OP is using!! Is (s)he a problem employee? Have no earthly idea. But describing being bullied by your bosses--not boss--will not fair well for the OP. And, I'd bet, without knowing him or her, that his or her contribution to that dynamic was quite significant. And his or her contribution is the ONLY piece that she or he can control for the future.
I know it was harsh, but that is what (s)he will likely face secondary to those issues. And one last point: there is something a bit off when a person can identify only external reasons for their problems and hold themselves as victims.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 0:16
David Espina
1,7591012
3
David, I've no idea how you can draw such dramatic conclusions from such a brief posting. I hate down-voting but I'm close with this post.
– gef05
Jul 25 '12 at 2:49
2
@jmort253 Probably true. It's besides the point, but probably true. Just to make the point clear: "You can't because, likely, you are a problem employee." That's what David said, and that's what I'm reacting to.
– gef05
Jul 25 '12 at 3:33
2
+1 because the answer perfectly indicates the way of how HR would think. But the wording can be improved, simply because many would get stuck onyou are a problem employeeand would not read the rest of your answer.
– bytebuster
Jul 25 '12 at 10:44
5
You might want to completely re-write, starting with "HR might assume that you are a 'problem employee' because...", it would be a less inflamatory and less constructive. The claim that there are no bullies in workplaces is simply not true.
– FrustratedWithFormsDesigner
Jul 25 '12 at 16:09
2
Please review this meta post... Much of the exchange in these comments are rude. If you are not offering advise on how to improve the post a downvote is all that is needed. Please clean up your comments.
– IDrinkandIKnowThings
Jul 25 '12 at 18:19
 |Â
show 8 more comments
up vote
-3
down vote
How do you give them as a reference or explain why you don't want to without sounding like a "problem" employee?
You can't because, likely, you are a problem employee. There are certainly bad bosses; in fact, I'd argue most one would encounter would likely lean to that bad boss side. However, the description that they are "bullies", i.e., they are bullying you or you feel bullied, implies something other than they were bad bosses. The perception of being bullied is very interesting and something you should take a serious look at.
They ask for references you gotta give 'em and you're going to get what you are going to get. In the mean time, take a strong, hard look at what you are contributing into the bullying dynamic and start working on changing that. You can't control the boss you are going to have, but you can control you.
Addendum: I knew I was going to get some reaction with my chosen words and possibly some negative votes. But that is exactly this OP's challenge: my drawn assumption--he being a "likely" problem employee--is exactly the assumption many or most or even all hiring managers would draw with the words this OP is using!! Is (s)he a problem employee? Have no earthly idea. But describing being bullied by your bosses--not boss--will not fair well for the OP. And, I'd bet, without knowing him or her, that his or her contribution to that dynamic was quite significant. And his or her contribution is the ONLY piece that she or he can control for the future.
I know it was harsh, but that is what (s)he will likely face secondary to those issues. And one last point: there is something a bit off when a person can identify only external reasons for their problems and hold themselves as victims.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 0:16
David Espina
1,7591012
3
David, I've no idea how you can draw such dramatic conclusions from such a brief posting. I hate down-voting but I'm close with this post.
– gef05
Jul 25 '12 at 2:49
2
@jmort253 Probably true. It's besides the point, but probably true. Just to make the point clear: "You can't because, likely, you are a problem employee." That's what David said, and that's what I'm reacting to.
– gef05
Jul 25 '12 at 3:33
2
+1 because the answer perfectly indicates the way of how HR would think. But the wording can be improved, simply because many would get stuck onyou are a problem employeeand would not read the rest of your answer.
– bytebuster
Jul 25 '12 at 10:44
5
You might want to completely re-write, starting with "HR might assume that you are a 'problem employee' because...", it would be a less inflamatory and less constructive. The claim that there are no bullies in workplaces is simply not true.
– FrustratedWithFormsDesigner
Jul 25 '12 at 16:09
2
Please review this meta post... Much of the exchange in these comments are rude. If you are not offering advise on how to improve the post a downvote is all that is needed. Please clean up your comments.
– IDrinkandIKnowThings
Jul 25 '12 at 18:19
 |Â
show 8 more comments
up vote
-3
down vote
up vote
-3
down vote
How do you give them as a reference or explain why you don't want to without sounding like a "problem" employee?
You can't because, likely, you are a problem employee. There are certainly bad bosses; in fact, I'd argue most one would encounter would likely lean to that bad boss side. However, the description that they are "bullies", i.e., they are bullying you or you feel bullied, implies something other than they were bad bosses. The perception of being bullied is very interesting and something you should take a serious look at.
They ask for references you gotta give 'em and you're going to get what you are going to get. In the mean time, take a strong, hard look at what you are contributing into the bullying dynamic and start working on changing that. You can't control the boss you are going to have, but you can control you.
Addendum: I knew I was going to get some reaction with my chosen words and possibly some negative votes. But that is exactly this OP's challenge: my drawn assumption--he being a "likely" problem employee--is exactly the assumption many or most or even all hiring managers would draw with the words this OP is using!! Is (s)he a problem employee? Have no earthly idea. But describing being bullied by your bosses--not boss--will not fair well for the OP. And, I'd bet, without knowing him or her, that his or her contribution to that dynamic was quite significant. And his or her contribution is the ONLY piece that she or he can control for the future.
I know it was harsh, but that is what (s)he will likely face secondary to those issues. And one last point: there is something a bit off when a person can identify only external reasons for their problems and hold themselves as victims.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 0:16
David Espina
1,7591012
How do you give them as a reference or explain why you don't want to without sounding like a "problem" employee?
You can't because, likely, you are a problem employee. There are certainly bad bosses; in fact, I'd argue most one would encounter would likely lean to that bad boss side. However, the description that they are "bullies", i.e., they are bullying you or you feel bullied, implies something other than they were bad bosses. The perception of being bullied is very interesting and something you should take a serious look at.
They ask for references you gotta give 'em and you're going to get what you are going to get. In the mean time, take a strong, hard look at what you are contributing into the bullying dynamic and start working on changing that. You can't control the boss you are going to have, but you can control you.
Addendum: I knew I was going to get some reaction with my chosen words and possibly some negative votes. But that is exactly this OP's challenge: my drawn assumption--he being a "likely" problem employee--is exactly the assumption many or most or even all hiring managers would draw with the words this OP is using!! Is (s)he a problem employee? Have no earthly idea. But describing being bullied by your bosses--not boss--will not fair well for the OP. And, I'd bet, without knowing him or her, that his or her contribution to that dynamic was quite significant. And his or her contribution is the ONLY piece that she or he can control for the future.
I know it was harsh, but that is what (s)he will likely face secondary to those issues. And one last point: there is something a bit off when a person can identify only external reasons for their problems and hold themselves as victims.
answered Jul 25 '12 at 0:16
David Espina
1,7591012
answered Jul 25 '12 at 0:16
David Espina
1,7591012
answered Jul 25 '12 at 0:16
David Espina
1,7591012
answered Jul 25 '12 at 0:16
David Espina
1,7591012
1,7591012
3
David, I've no idea how you can draw such dramatic conclusions from such a brief posting. I hate down-voting but I'm close with this post.
– gef05
Jul 25 '12 at 2:49
2
@jmort253 Probably true. It's besides the point, but probably true. Just to make the point clear: "You can't because, likely, you are a problem employee." That's what David said, and that's what I'm reacting to.
– gef05
Jul 25 '12 at 3:33
2
+1 because the answer perfectly indicates the way of how HR would think. But the wording can be improved, simply because many would get stuck onyou are a problem employeeand would not read the rest of your answer.
– bytebuster
Jul 25 '12 at 10:44
5
You might want to completely re-write, starting with "HR might assume that you are a 'problem employee' because...", it would be a less inflamatory and less constructive. The claim that there are no bullies in workplaces is simply not true.
– FrustratedWithFormsDesigner
Jul 25 '12 at 16:09
2
Please review this meta post... Much of the exchange in these comments are rude. If you are not offering advise on how to improve the post a downvote is all that is needed. Please clean up your comments.
– IDrinkandIKnowThings
Jul 25 '12 at 18:19
 |Â
show 8 more comments
3
David, I've no idea how you can draw such dramatic conclusions from such a brief posting. I hate down-voting but I'm close with this post.
– gef05
Jul 25 '12 at 2:49
2
@jmort253 Probably true. It's besides the point, but probably true. Just to make the point clear: "You can't because, likely, you are a problem employee." That's what David said, and that's what I'm reacting to.
– gef05
Jul 25 '12 at 3:33
2
+1 because the answer perfectly indicates the way of how HR would think. But the wording can be improved, simply because many would get stuck onyou are a problem employeeand would not read the rest of your answer.
– bytebuster
Jul 25 '12 at 10:44
5
You might want to completely re-write, starting with "HR might assume that you are a 'problem employee' because...", it would be a less inflamatory and less constructive. The claim that there are no bullies in workplaces is simply not true.
– FrustratedWithFormsDesigner
Jul 25 '12 at 16:09
2
Please review this meta post... Much of the exchange in these comments are rude. If you are not offering advise on how to improve the post a downvote is all that is needed. Please clean up your comments.
– IDrinkandIKnowThings
Jul 25 '12 at 18:19
3
3
David, I've no idea how you can draw such dramatic conclusions from such a brief posting. I hate down-voting but I'm close with this post.
– gef05
Jul 25 '12 at 2:49
David, I've no idea how you can draw such dramatic conclusions from such a brief posting. I hate down-voting but I'm close with this post.
– gef05
Jul 25 '12 at 2:49
2
2
@jmort253 Probably true. It's besides the point, but probably true. Just to make the point clear: "You can't because, likely, you are a problem employee." That's what David said, and that's what I'm reacting to.
– gef05
Jul 25 '12 at 3:33
@jmort253 Probably true. It's besides the point, but probably true. Just to make the point clear: "You can't because, likely, you are a problem employee." That's what David said, and that's what I'm reacting to.
– gef05
Jul 25 '12 at 3:33
2
2
+1 because the answer perfectly indicates the way of how HR would think. But the wording can be improved, simply because many would get stuck on
you are a problem employee and would not read the rest of your answer.– bytebuster
Jul 25 '12 at 10:44
+1 because the answer perfectly indicates the way of how HR would think. But the wording can be improved, simply because many would get stuck on
you are a problem employee and would not read the rest of your answer.– bytebuster
Jul 25 '12 at 10:44
5
5
You might want to completely re-write, starting with "HR might assume that you are a 'problem employee' because...", it would be a less inflamatory and less constructive. The claim that there are no bullies in workplaces is simply not true.
– FrustratedWithFormsDesigner
Jul 25 '12 at 16:09
You might want to completely re-write, starting with "HR might assume that you are a 'problem employee' because...", it would be a less inflamatory and less constructive. The claim that there are no bullies in workplaces is simply not true.
– FrustratedWithFormsDesigner
Jul 25 '12 at 16:09
2
2
Please review this meta post... Much of the exchange in these comments are rude. If you are not offering advise on how to improve the post a downvote is all that is needed. Please clean up your comments.
– IDrinkandIKnowThings
Jul 25 '12 at 18:19
Please review this meta post... Much of the exchange in these comments are rude. If you are not offering advise on how to improve the post a downvote is all that is needed. Please clean up your comments.
– IDrinkandIKnowThings
Jul 25 '12 at 18:19
 |Â
show 8 more comments
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4
As a related comment and not so much an answer, when you're just being asked to provide references to verify proof of employment, you can sidestep the issue of getting something from someone with whom you have a bad relationship, by giving contact information for the company's HR. That won't work for personal references, of course (unless you actually work in HR :) ).
– jcmeloni
Jul 25 '12 at 17:15
2
And perssonal references are almost never bosses
– HLGEM
Jul 25 '12 at 18:23
4
Professional references should come from people you've worked with. It wouldn't occur to me to provide a reference from any former co-worker I didn't respect. In the United States if a manager gives a poor reference for a former employee he or she opens themselves up to serious lawsuit. That's why most medium and large companies will only confirm or deny employment of former employees, and prohibit anything 'judgmental' beyond a yes or no answer to the question 'is this former employee eligible for rehire?' .
– Jim In Texas
Jul 25 '12 at 20:40