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Why are places specifying “(m/f)†in the job title?
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I often see "(m/f)" in the description of software developer jobs. Even in jobs in progressive countries like Germany, France or Switzerland.
I assume that m/f means "male or female".
I'm wondering:
- Why specify that in the job title (isn't it obvious that both genders are welcome to apply to the job)?
- Wouldn't that come off as discriminating towards people that do not identify as male or female?
job-description job-listing
asked Dec 20 '15 at 15:32
Benjamin Gruenbaum
3,69421929
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show 3 more comments
up vote
71
down vote
favorite
I often see "(m/f)" in the description of software developer jobs. Even in jobs in progressive countries like Germany, France or Switzerland.
I assume that m/f means "male or female".
I'm wondering:
- Why specify that in the job title (isn't it obvious that both genders are welcome to apply to the job)?
- Wouldn't that come off as discriminating towards people that do not identify as male or female?
job-description job-listing
asked Dec 20 '15 at 15:32
Benjamin Gruenbaum
3,69421929
8
I don't think it's always as obvious that women are welcome in IT since there are so few. I think it's a (bad) way to say "we aren't a boys only club".
– Luggage
Dec 20 '15 at 15:42
6
The Belgian Federal Government now even writes out positions with (m/v/x) in the title, so people who don't identify with either m/v know they can apply as well, and mark "x" as gender.
– Konerak
Dec 21 '15 at 9:47
9
This actually means "(male/female)"?!? I had always assumed it meant "Monday through Friday", as in "full time". Is this seriously something that indicates the gender for a job outside of performance art (where actual vs apparent gender isn't even the point) or maybe infantry? WOW!
– zxq9
Dec 21 '15 at 15:37
6
@zxq9 Did you not take the time to read the answer that explains this is a legal requirement due to gendered nouns in the language itself? Think of the term "fireman" - we use "firefighter" nowadays. Some languages don't have those neutral words for all base words, so they put m/f to make it clear.
– corsiKa
Dec 21 '15 at 16:58
1
While interesting, try to keep the political and social issues related to this question either on the appropriate SE sites (or The Workplace Chat). Thanks!
– Elysian Fields♦
Dec 22 '15 at 1:53
 |Â
show 3 more comments
up vote
71
down vote
favorite
up vote
71
down vote
favorite
I often see "(m/f)" in the description of software developer jobs. Even in jobs in progressive countries like Germany, France or Switzerland.
I assume that m/f means "male or female".
I'm wondering:
- Why specify that in the job title (isn't it obvious that both genders are welcome to apply to the job)?
- Wouldn't that come off as discriminating towards people that do not identify as male or female?
job-description job-listing
asked Dec 20 '15 at 15:32
Benjamin Gruenbaum
3,69421929
I often see "(m/f)" in the description of software developer jobs. Even in jobs in progressive countries like Germany, France or Switzerland.
I assume that m/f means "male or female".
I'm wondering:
- Why specify that in the job title (isn't it obvious that both genders are welcome to apply to the job)?
- Wouldn't that come off as discriminating towards people that do not identify as male or female?
job-description job-listing
asked Dec 20 '15 at 15:32
Benjamin Gruenbaum
3,69421929
edited Dec 20 '15 at 19:04
asked Dec 20 '15 at 15:32
Benjamin Gruenbaum
3,69421929
asked Dec 20 '15 at 15:32
Benjamin Gruenbaum
3,69421929
asked Dec 20 '15 at 15:32
Benjamin Gruenbaum
3,69421929
3,69421929
8
I don't think it's always as obvious that women are welcome in IT since there are so few. I think it's a (bad) way to say "we aren't a boys only club".
– Luggage
Dec 20 '15 at 15:42
6
The Belgian Federal Government now even writes out positions with (m/v/x) in the title, so people who don't identify with either m/v know they can apply as well, and mark "x" as gender.
– Konerak
Dec 21 '15 at 9:47
9
This actually means "(male/female)"?!? I had always assumed it meant "Monday through Friday", as in "full time". Is this seriously something that indicates the gender for a job outside of performance art (where actual vs apparent gender isn't even the point) or maybe infantry? WOW!
– zxq9
Dec 21 '15 at 15:37
6
@zxq9 Did you not take the time to read the answer that explains this is a legal requirement due to gendered nouns in the language itself? Think of the term "fireman" - we use "firefighter" nowadays. Some languages don't have those neutral words for all base words, so they put m/f to make it clear.
– corsiKa
Dec 21 '15 at 16:58
1
While interesting, try to keep the political and social issues related to this question either on the appropriate SE sites (or The Workplace Chat). Thanks!
– Elysian Fields♦
Dec 22 '15 at 1:53
 |Â
show 3 more comments
8
I don't think it's always as obvious that women are welcome in IT since there are so few. I think it's a (bad) way to say "we aren't a boys only club".
– Luggage
Dec 20 '15 at 15:42
6
The Belgian Federal Government now even writes out positions with (m/v/x) in the title, so people who don't identify with either m/v know they can apply as well, and mark "x" as gender.
– Konerak
Dec 21 '15 at 9:47
9
This actually means "(male/female)"?!? I had always assumed it meant "Monday through Friday", as in "full time". Is this seriously something that indicates the gender for a job outside of performance art (where actual vs apparent gender isn't even the point) or maybe infantry? WOW!
– zxq9
Dec 21 '15 at 15:37
6
@zxq9 Did you not take the time to read the answer that explains this is a legal requirement due to gendered nouns in the language itself? Think of the term "fireman" - we use "firefighter" nowadays. Some languages don't have those neutral words for all base words, so they put m/f to make it clear.
– corsiKa
Dec 21 '15 at 16:58
1
While interesting, try to keep the political and social issues related to this question either on the appropriate SE sites (or The Workplace Chat). Thanks!
– Elysian Fields♦
Dec 22 '15 at 1:53
8
8
I don't think it's always as obvious that women are welcome in IT since there are so few. I think it's a (bad) way to say "we aren't a boys only club".
– Luggage
Dec 20 '15 at 15:42
I don't think it's always as obvious that women are welcome in IT since there are so few. I think it's a (bad) way to say "we aren't a boys only club".
– Luggage
Dec 20 '15 at 15:42
6
6
The Belgian Federal Government now even writes out positions with (m/v/x) in the title, so people who don't identify with either m/v know they can apply as well, and mark "x" as gender.
– Konerak
Dec 21 '15 at 9:47
The Belgian Federal Government now even writes out positions with (m/v/x) in the title, so people who don't identify with either m/v know they can apply as well, and mark "x" as gender.
– Konerak
Dec 21 '15 at 9:47
9
9
This actually means "(male/female)"?!? I had always assumed it meant "Monday through Friday", as in "full time". Is this seriously something that indicates the gender for a job outside of performance art (where actual vs apparent gender isn't even the point) or maybe infantry? WOW!
– zxq9
Dec 21 '15 at 15:37
This actually means "(male/female)"?!? I had always assumed it meant "Monday through Friday", as in "full time". Is this seriously something that indicates the gender for a job outside of performance art (where actual vs apparent gender isn't even the point) or maybe infantry? WOW!
– zxq9
Dec 21 '15 at 15:37
6
6
@zxq9 Did you not take the time to read the answer that explains this is a legal requirement due to gendered nouns in the language itself? Think of the term "fireman" - we use "firefighter" nowadays. Some languages don't have those neutral words for all base words, so they put m/f to make it clear.
– corsiKa
Dec 21 '15 at 16:58
@zxq9 Did you not take the time to read the answer that explains this is a legal requirement due to gendered nouns in the language itself? Think of the term "fireman" - we use "firefighter" nowadays. Some languages don't have those neutral words for all base words, so they put m/f to make it clear.
– corsiKa
Dec 21 '15 at 16:58
1
1
While interesting, try to keep the political and social issues related to this question either on the appropriate SE sites (or The Workplace Chat). Thanks!
– Elysian Fields♦
Dec 22 '15 at 1:53
While interesting, try to keep the political and social issues related to this question either on the appropriate SE sites (or The Workplace Chat). Thanks!
– Elysian Fields♦
Dec 22 '15 at 1:53
 |Â
show 3 more comments
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
up vote
130
down vote
accepted
German nouns (including job titles) have a grammatical gender.
A programmer for example would either be "Programmierer" (male version) or "Programmiererin" (female version). It has been common usage to take the male form when you mean both genders, but in recent years, feminism and European gender equality guidelines implemented as German laws (not saying that's a bad thing) have made it mandatory to make clear you mean both genders. So there are a few options in German:
Programmierer (m/w)
(m/w) is for "männlich/weiblich" which means "male/female"
Programmierer oder Programmiererin
Long form, just imagine that with a multi word title like director of operations or something
Programmierer(in)
Abbreviation of long form.
Programmierer/in
Another possible abbreviation of long form.
For IT jobs, Germany tends to use English names more often. Software Engineer for example. Now, appending something like (m/f) would be wrong, because Sotfware Engineer does not have a gender in English. However, once you use it in a German sentence, it will have to have a gender because that is how the German language works. Software Engineer for example will be male according to German grammar rules. Now to be safe, people append (m/w), or the English (m/f) to be consistent, because those 5 letters that can save you from a discrimination lawsuit.
Theoretically, there have been attempts to implement more fairness for those that feel they are neither male nor female, but it has not caught on. Maybe because biologically, it's quite hard to be neither and for those that are, a German law based on a European guideline that regulates job title grammatical genders is not actually on their most pressing problems list.
edited Jan 15 '16 at 18:40
Lilienthal♦
53.9k36183218
answered Dec 20 '15 at 16:44
nvoigt
42.6k18105147
18
Same thing applies in french. A developper would be "développeur" or "développeuse" for male and female respectively. It's shorter to write "développeur web (H/F)" than "développeur/développeuse web". Some people may assume that the "masculine" version includes both, some may not. Including (H/F) makes it explicit.
– jcaron
Dec 20 '15 at 23:32
5
That, but also probably as a legal safety : like that, you're sure you can prove you're not discriminating.
– gazzz0x2z
Dec 21 '15 at 7:53
3
Relevant law: gesetze-im-internet.de/agg, de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allgemeines_Gleichbehandlungsgesetz
– kay
Dec 21 '15 at 15:57
10
Years ago in Belgium a brothel once got a complaint and changed a sign on the road so it read "Wanted: girls (m/f)"
– Jan Fabry
Dec 22 '15 at 11:11
5
"Maybe because biologically, it's quite hard to be neither." Consider rewording or omitting this, it seems an unnecessary and inaccurate addition to an otherwise good answer. Just going by chromosomes, there are viable options other than XX and XY. Going by physical presentation, there's a pretty full spectrum.
– user52889
Dec 23 '15 at 23:17
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
16
down vote
The (m/f) can be seen even in Italy because in this language nouns have grammatical gender.
So Programmer is traslated to Programmatore (male) or Programmatrice (female) even if is common to use the male form even for the women who work in this environment.
answered Dec 20 '15 at 19:24
Ema.jar
705716
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13
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As per this answer , its because German job titles are gendered, and m/f is just a translation artifact in many cases
edited Mar 20 '17 at 10:31
Community♦
1
answered Dec 20 '15 at 15:42
Akash
24217
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
4
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The existing answers refer to linguistic arguments. However, a very similar suffix (m/v) is used in Dutch where the linguistic gender is purely theoretic. A quick search turned up that Dutch law requires such an addition, a law which is the implementation of Council Directive 79/7/EEC of 19 December 1978 on the progressive implementation of the principle of equal treatment for men and women in matters of social security.
So obviously the German, French and Italian advertisements have to follow the same EU regulations.
answered Dec 22 '15 at 0:45
MSalters
68248
This is the real answer imho.
– WorksOdd
Aug 24 '16 at 12:56
Does it mean that if I find a job position for the same company without m/f it is only allowed to men? Because I found Developer position with m/f but not for manager positions. That makes me think that I should avoid work at that company.
– ccsakuweb
May 11 '17 at 6:57
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
2
down vote
As to the "Wouldn't that come off as discriminating towards people that do not identify as male or female?"
Companies are interested in finding someone to do the job. Decent companies don't care about gender, skin colour, religion and so on as long as it doesn't interfere with the job.
If you don't identify as male or female, it's your choice to assume that this is a decent company that doesn't care about gender and apply and get the job, or don't get the job because someone else was better, or don't get the job because of illegal discrimination and sue them. Or you can assume that there is a conspiracy against you, clearly expressed by stating they accept male and female people. Now the simple fact is that if this company is run by decent people who would have had no problem accepting you, and you accuse them of discrimination when no such thing was ever intended, you are not making friends.
On the other hand, you are welcome to give a complete list of everything you would like added to "m/f" to not discriminate against anybody. And the longer the list, the more likely it is that you actually intend to discriminate against anyone not on the list.
answered Dec 22 '15 at 14:00
gnasher729
70.9k31131222
2
Companies care a lot about their reputation and hiring is hard. Coming off as a discriminating workplace would be a turnoff for me (I'm a cisgender heterosexual (married) male). Here, it is common to write "The job listing is written in male tense, but it applies to all genders equally" (vs the older "both genders").
– Benjamin Gruenbaum
Dec 22 '15 at 15:34
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5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
130
down vote
accepted
German nouns (including job titles) have a grammatical gender.
A programmer for example would either be "Programmierer" (male version) or "Programmiererin" (female version). It has been common usage to take the male form when you mean both genders, but in recent years, feminism and European gender equality guidelines implemented as German laws (not saying that's a bad thing) have made it mandatory to make clear you mean both genders. So there are a few options in German:
Programmierer (m/w)
(m/w) is for "männlich/weiblich" which means "male/female"
Programmierer oder Programmiererin
Long form, just imagine that with a multi word title like director of operations or something
Programmierer(in)
Abbreviation of long form.
Programmierer/in
Another possible abbreviation of long form.
For IT jobs, Germany tends to use English names more often. Software Engineer for example. Now, appending something like (m/f) would be wrong, because Sotfware Engineer does not have a gender in English. However, once you use it in a German sentence, it will have to have a gender because that is how the German language works. Software Engineer for example will be male according to German grammar rules. Now to be safe, people append (m/w), or the English (m/f) to be consistent, because those 5 letters that can save you from a discrimination lawsuit.
Theoretically, there have been attempts to implement more fairness for those that feel they are neither male nor female, but it has not caught on. Maybe because biologically, it's quite hard to be neither and for those that are, a German law based on a European guideline that regulates job title grammatical genders is not actually on their most pressing problems list.
edited Jan 15 '16 at 18:40
Lilienthal♦
53.9k36183218
answered Dec 20 '15 at 16:44
nvoigt
42.6k18105147
18
Same thing applies in french. A developper would be "développeur" or "développeuse" for male and female respectively. It's shorter to write "développeur web (H/F)" than "développeur/développeuse web". Some people may assume that the "masculine" version includes both, some may not. Including (H/F) makes it explicit.
– jcaron
Dec 20 '15 at 23:32
5
That, but also probably as a legal safety : like that, you're sure you can prove you're not discriminating.
– gazzz0x2z
Dec 21 '15 at 7:53
3
Relevant law: gesetze-im-internet.de/agg, de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allgemeines_Gleichbehandlungsgesetz
– kay
Dec 21 '15 at 15:57
10
Years ago in Belgium a brothel once got a complaint and changed a sign on the road so it read "Wanted: girls (m/f)"
– Jan Fabry
Dec 22 '15 at 11:11
5
"Maybe because biologically, it's quite hard to be neither." Consider rewording or omitting this, it seems an unnecessary and inaccurate addition to an otherwise good answer. Just going by chromosomes, there are viable options other than XX and XY. Going by physical presentation, there's a pretty full spectrum.
– user52889
Dec 23 '15 at 23:17
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
130
down vote
accepted
German nouns (including job titles) have a grammatical gender.
A programmer for example would either be "Programmierer" (male version) or "Programmiererin" (female version). It has been common usage to take the male form when you mean both genders, but in recent years, feminism and European gender equality guidelines implemented as German laws (not saying that's a bad thing) have made it mandatory to make clear you mean both genders. So there are a few options in German:
Programmierer (m/w)
(m/w) is for "männlich/weiblich" which means "male/female"
Programmierer oder Programmiererin
Long form, just imagine that with a multi word title like director of operations or something
Programmierer(in)
Abbreviation of long form.
Programmierer/in
Another possible abbreviation of long form.
For IT jobs, Germany tends to use English names more often. Software Engineer for example. Now, appending something like (m/f) would be wrong, because Sotfware Engineer does not have a gender in English. However, once you use it in a German sentence, it will have to have a gender because that is how the German language works. Software Engineer for example will be male according to German grammar rules. Now to be safe, people append (m/w), or the English (m/f) to be consistent, because those 5 letters that can save you from a discrimination lawsuit.
Theoretically, there have been attempts to implement more fairness for those that feel they are neither male nor female, but it has not caught on. Maybe because biologically, it's quite hard to be neither and for those that are, a German law based on a European guideline that regulates job title grammatical genders is not actually on their most pressing problems list.
edited Jan 15 '16 at 18:40
Lilienthal♦
53.9k36183218
answered Dec 20 '15 at 16:44
nvoigt
42.6k18105147
18
Same thing applies in french. A developper would be "développeur" or "développeuse" for male and female respectively. It's shorter to write "développeur web (H/F)" than "développeur/développeuse web". Some people may assume that the "masculine" version includes both, some may not. Including (H/F) makes it explicit.
– jcaron
Dec 20 '15 at 23:32
5
That, but also probably as a legal safety : like that, you're sure you can prove you're not discriminating.
– gazzz0x2z
Dec 21 '15 at 7:53
3
Relevant law: gesetze-im-internet.de/agg, de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allgemeines_Gleichbehandlungsgesetz
– kay
Dec 21 '15 at 15:57
10
Years ago in Belgium a brothel once got a complaint and changed a sign on the road so it read "Wanted: girls (m/f)"
– Jan Fabry
Dec 22 '15 at 11:11
5
"Maybe because biologically, it's quite hard to be neither." Consider rewording or omitting this, it seems an unnecessary and inaccurate addition to an otherwise good answer. Just going by chromosomes, there are viable options other than XX and XY. Going by physical presentation, there's a pretty full spectrum.
– user52889
Dec 23 '15 at 23:17
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
130
down vote
accepted
up vote
130
down vote
accepted
German nouns (including job titles) have a grammatical gender.
A programmer for example would either be "Programmierer" (male version) or "Programmiererin" (female version). It has been common usage to take the male form when you mean both genders, but in recent years, feminism and European gender equality guidelines implemented as German laws (not saying that's a bad thing) have made it mandatory to make clear you mean both genders. So there are a few options in German:
Programmierer (m/w)
(m/w) is for "männlich/weiblich" which means "male/female"
Programmierer oder Programmiererin
Long form, just imagine that with a multi word title like director of operations or something
Programmierer(in)
Abbreviation of long form.
Programmierer/in
Another possible abbreviation of long form.
For IT jobs, Germany tends to use English names more often. Software Engineer for example. Now, appending something like (m/f) would be wrong, because Sotfware Engineer does not have a gender in English. However, once you use it in a German sentence, it will have to have a gender because that is how the German language works. Software Engineer for example will be male according to German grammar rules. Now to be safe, people append (m/w), or the English (m/f) to be consistent, because those 5 letters that can save you from a discrimination lawsuit.
Theoretically, there have been attempts to implement more fairness for those that feel they are neither male nor female, but it has not caught on. Maybe because biologically, it's quite hard to be neither and for those that are, a German law based on a European guideline that regulates job title grammatical genders is not actually on their most pressing problems list.
edited Jan 15 '16 at 18:40
Lilienthal♦
53.9k36183218
answered Dec 20 '15 at 16:44
nvoigt
42.6k18105147
German nouns (including job titles) have a grammatical gender.
A programmer for example would either be "Programmierer" (male version) or "Programmiererin" (female version). It has been common usage to take the male form when you mean both genders, but in recent years, feminism and European gender equality guidelines implemented as German laws (not saying that's a bad thing) have made it mandatory to make clear you mean both genders. So there are a few options in German:
Programmierer (m/w)
(m/w) is for "männlich/weiblich" which means "male/female"
Programmierer oder Programmiererin
Long form, just imagine that with a multi word title like director of operations or something
Programmierer(in)
Abbreviation of long form.
Programmierer/in
Another possible abbreviation of long form.
For IT jobs, Germany tends to use English names more often. Software Engineer for example. Now, appending something like (m/f) would be wrong, because Sotfware Engineer does not have a gender in English. However, once you use it in a German sentence, it will have to have a gender because that is how the German language works. Software Engineer for example will be male according to German grammar rules. Now to be safe, people append (m/w), or the English (m/f) to be consistent, because those 5 letters that can save you from a discrimination lawsuit.
Theoretically, there have been attempts to implement more fairness for those that feel they are neither male nor female, but it has not caught on. Maybe because biologically, it's quite hard to be neither and for those that are, a German law based on a European guideline that regulates job title grammatical genders is not actually on their most pressing problems list.
edited Jan 15 '16 at 18:40
Lilienthal♦
53.9k36183218
answered Dec 20 '15 at 16:44
nvoigt
42.6k18105147
edited Jan 15 '16 at 18:40
Lilienthal♦
53.9k36183218
edited Jan 15 '16 at 18:40
Lilienthal♦
53.9k36183218
edited Jan 15 '16 at 18:40
Lilienthal♦
53.9k36183218
53.9k36183218
answered Dec 20 '15 at 16:44
nvoigt
42.6k18105147
answered Dec 20 '15 at 16:44
nvoigt
42.6k18105147
answered Dec 20 '15 at 16:44
nvoigt
42.6k18105147
42.6k18105147
18
Same thing applies in french. A developper would be "développeur" or "développeuse" for male and female respectively. It's shorter to write "développeur web (H/F)" than "développeur/développeuse web". Some people may assume that the "masculine" version includes both, some may not. Including (H/F) makes it explicit.
– jcaron
Dec 20 '15 at 23:32
5
That, but also probably as a legal safety : like that, you're sure you can prove you're not discriminating.
– gazzz0x2z
Dec 21 '15 at 7:53
3
Relevant law: gesetze-im-internet.de/agg, de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allgemeines_Gleichbehandlungsgesetz
– kay
Dec 21 '15 at 15:57
10
Years ago in Belgium a brothel once got a complaint and changed a sign on the road so it read "Wanted: girls (m/f)"
– Jan Fabry
Dec 22 '15 at 11:11
5
"Maybe because biologically, it's quite hard to be neither." Consider rewording or omitting this, it seems an unnecessary and inaccurate addition to an otherwise good answer. Just going by chromosomes, there are viable options other than XX and XY. Going by physical presentation, there's a pretty full spectrum.
– user52889
Dec 23 '15 at 23:17
 |Â
show 2 more comments
18
Same thing applies in french. A developper would be "développeur" or "développeuse" for male and female respectively. It's shorter to write "développeur web (H/F)" than "développeur/développeuse web". Some people may assume that the "masculine" version includes both, some may not. Including (H/F) makes it explicit.
– jcaron
Dec 20 '15 at 23:32
5
That, but also probably as a legal safety : like that, you're sure you can prove you're not discriminating.
– gazzz0x2z
Dec 21 '15 at 7:53
3
Relevant law: gesetze-im-internet.de/agg, de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allgemeines_Gleichbehandlungsgesetz
– kay
Dec 21 '15 at 15:57
10
Years ago in Belgium a brothel once got a complaint and changed a sign on the road so it read "Wanted: girls (m/f)"
– Jan Fabry
Dec 22 '15 at 11:11
5
"Maybe because biologically, it's quite hard to be neither." Consider rewording or omitting this, it seems an unnecessary and inaccurate addition to an otherwise good answer. Just going by chromosomes, there are viable options other than XX and XY. Going by physical presentation, there's a pretty full spectrum.
– user52889
Dec 23 '15 at 23:17
18
18
Same thing applies in french. A developper would be "développeur" or "développeuse" for male and female respectively. It's shorter to write "développeur web (H/F)" than "développeur/développeuse web". Some people may assume that the "masculine" version includes both, some may not. Including (H/F) makes it explicit.
– jcaron
Dec 20 '15 at 23:32
Same thing applies in french. A developper would be "développeur" or "développeuse" for male and female respectively. It's shorter to write "développeur web (H/F)" than "développeur/développeuse web". Some people may assume that the "masculine" version includes both, some may not. Including (H/F) makes it explicit.
– jcaron
Dec 20 '15 at 23:32
5
5
That, but also probably as a legal safety : like that, you're sure you can prove you're not discriminating.
– gazzz0x2z
Dec 21 '15 at 7:53
That, but also probably as a legal safety : like that, you're sure you can prove you're not discriminating.
– gazzz0x2z
Dec 21 '15 at 7:53
3
3
Relevant law: gesetze-im-internet.de/agg, de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allgemeines_Gleichbehandlungsgesetz
– kay
Dec 21 '15 at 15:57
Relevant law: gesetze-im-internet.de/agg, de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allgemeines_Gleichbehandlungsgesetz
– kay
Dec 21 '15 at 15:57
10
10
Years ago in Belgium a brothel once got a complaint and changed a sign on the road so it read "Wanted: girls (m/f)"
– Jan Fabry
Dec 22 '15 at 11:11
Years ago in Belgium a brothel once got a complaint and changed a sign on the road so it read "Wanted: girls (m/f)"
– Jan Fabry
Dec 22 '15 at 11:11
5
5
"Maybe because biologically, it's quite hard to be neither." Consider rewording or omitting this, it seems an unnecessary and inaccurate addition to an otherwise good answer. Just going by chromosomes, there are viable options other than XX and XY. Going by physical presentation, there's a pretty full spectrum.
– user52889
Dec 23 '15 at 23:17
"Maybe because biologically, it's quite hard to be neither." Consider rewording or omitting this, it seems an unnecessary and inaccurate addition to an otherwise good answer. Just going by chromosomes, there are viable options other than XX and XY. Going by physical presentation, there's a pretty full spectrum.
– user52889
Dec 23 '15 at 23:17
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
16
down vote
The (m/f) can be seen even in Italy because in this language nouns have grammatical gender.
So Programmer is traslated to Programmatore (male) or Programmatrice (female) even if is common to use the male form even for the women who work in this environment.
answered Dec 20 '15 at 19:24
Ema.jar
705716
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
16
down vote
The (m/f) can be seen even in Italy because in this language nouns have grammatical gender.
So Programmer is traslated to Programmatore (male) or Programmatrice (female) even if is common to use the male form even for the women who work in this environment.
answered Dec 20 '15 at 19:24
Ema.jar
705716
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
16
down vote
up vote
16
down vote
The (m/f) can be seen even in Italy because in this language nouns have grammatical gender.
So Programmer is traslated to Programmatore (male) or Programmatrice (female) even if is common to use the male form even for the women who work in this environment.
answered Dec 20 '15 at 19:24
Ema.jar
705716
The (m/f) can be seen even in Italy because in this language nouns have grammatical gender.
So Programmer is traslated to Programmatore (male) or Programmatrice (female) even if is common to use the male form even for the women who work in this environment.
answered Dec 20 '15 at 19:24
Ema.jar
705716
edited Dec 21 '15 at 15:59
answered Dec 20 '15 at 19:24
Ema.jar
705716
answered Dec 20 '15 at 19:24
Ema.jar
705716
answered Dec 20 '15 at 19:24
Ema.jar
705716
705716
suggest improvements |Â
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
13
down vote
As per this answer , its because German job titles are gendered, and m/f is just a translation artifact in many cases
edited Mar 20 '17 at 10:31
Community♦
1
answered Dec 20 '15 at 15:42
Akash
24217
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
13
down vote
As per this answer , its because German job titles are gendered, and m/f is just a translation artifact in many cases
edited Mar 20 '17 at 10:31
Community♦
1
answered Dec 20 '15 at 15:42
Akash
24217
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
13
down vote
up vote
13
down vote
As per this answer , its because German job titles are gendered, and m/f is just a translation artifact in many cases
edited Mar 20 '17 at 10:31
Community♦
1
answered Dec 20 '15 at 15:42
Akash
24217
As per this answer , its because German job titles are gendered, and m/f is just a translation artifact in many cases
edited Mar 20 '17 at 10:31
Community♦
1
answered Dec 20 '15 at 15:42
Akash
24217
edited Mar 20 '17 at 10:31
Community♦
1
edited Mar 20 '17 at 10:31
Community♦
1
edited Mar 20 '17 at 10:31
Community♦
1
1
answered Dec 20 '15 at 15:42
Akash
24217
answered Dec 20 '15 at 15:42
Akash
24217
answered Dec 20 '15 at 15:42
Akash
24217
24217
suggest improvements |Â
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
4
down vote
The existing answers refer to linguistic arguments. However, a very similar suffix (m/v) is used in Dutch where the linguistic gender is purely theoretic. A quick search turned up that Dutch law requires such an addition, a law which is the implementation of Council Directive 79/7/EEC of 19 December 1978 on the progressive implementation of the principle of equal treatment for men and women in matters of social security.
So obviously the German, French and Italian advertisements have to follow the same EU regulations.
answered Dec 22 '15 at 0:45
MSalters
68248
This is the real answer imho.
– WorksOdd
Aug 24 '16 at 12:56
Does it mean that if I find a job position for the same company without m/f it is only allowed to men? Because I found Developer position with m/f but not for manager positions. That makes me think that I should avoid work at that company.
– ccsakuweb
May 11 '17 at 6:57
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
4
down vote
The existing answers refer to linguistic arguments. However, a very similar suffix (m/v) is used in Dutch where the linguistic gender is purely theoretic. A quick search turned up that Dutch law requires such an addition, a law which is the implementation of Council Directive 79/7/EEC of 19 December 1978 on the progressive implementation of the principle of equal treatment for men and women in matters of social security.
So obviously the German, French and Italian advertisements have to follow the same EU regulations.
answered Dec 22 '15 at 0:45
MSalters
68248
This is the real answer imho.
– WorksOdd
Aug 24 '16 at 12:56
Does it mean that if I find a job position for the same company without m/f it is only allowed to men? Because I found Developer position with m/f but not for manager positions. That makes me think that I should avoid work at that company.
– ccsakuweb
May 11 '17 at 6:57
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
The existing answers refer to linguistic arguments. However, a very similar suffix (m/v) is used in Dutch where the linguistic gender is purely theoretic. A quick search turned up that Dutch law requires such an addition, a law which is the implementation of Council Directive 79/7/EEC of 19 December 1978 on the progressive implementation of the principle of equal treatment for men and women in matters of social security.
So obviously the German, French and Italian advertisements have to follow the same EU regulations.
answered Dec 22 '15 at 0:45
MSalters
68248
The existing answers refer to linguistic arguments. However, a very similar suffix (m/v) is used in Dutch where the linguistic gender is purely theoretic. A quick search turned up that Dutch law requires such an addition, a law which is the implementation of Council Directive 79/7/EEC of 19 December 1978 on the progressive implementation of the principle of equal treatment for men and women in matters of social security.
So obviously the German, French and Italian advertisements have to follow the same EU regulations.
answered Dec 22 '15 at 0:45
MSalters
68248
answered Dec 22 '15 at 0:45
MSalters
68248
answered Dec 22 '15 at 0:45
MSalters
68248
answered Dec 22 '15 at 0:45
MSalters
68248
68248
This is the real answer imho.
– WorksOdd
Aug 24 '16 at 12:56
Does it mean that if I find a job position for the same company without m/f it is only allowed to men? Because I found Developer position with m/f but not for manager positions. That makes me think that I should avoid work at that company.
– ccsakuweb
May 11 '17 at 6:57
suggest improvements |Â
This is the real answer imho.
– WorksOdd
Aug 24 '16 at 12:56
Does it mean that if I find a job position for the same company without m/f it is only allowed to men? Because I found Developer position with m/f but not for manager positions. That makes me think that I should avoid work at that company.
– ccsakuweb
May 11 '17 at 6:57
This is the real answer imho.
– WorksOdd
Aug 24 '16 at 12:56
This is the real answer imho.
– WorksOdd
Aug 24 '16 at 12:56
Does it mean that if I find a job position for the same company without m/f it is only allowed to men? Because I found Developer position with m/f but not for manager positions. That makes me think that I should avoid work at that company.
– ccsakuweb
May 11 '17 at 6:57
Does it mean that if I find a job position for the same company without m/f it is only allowed to men? Because I found Developer position with m/f but not for manager positions. That makes me think that I should avoid work at that company.
– ccsakuweb
May 11 '17 at 6:57
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
2
down vote
As to the "Wouldn't that come off as discriminating towards people that do not identify as male or female?"
Companies are interested in finding someone to do the job. Decent companies don't care about gender, skin colour, religion and so on as long as it doesn't interfere with the job.
If you don't identify as male or female, it's your choice to assume that this is a decent company that doesn't care about gender and apply and get the job, or don't get the job because someone else was better, or don't get the job because of illegal discrimination and sue them. Or you can assume that there is a conspiracy against you, clearly expressed by stating they accept male and female people. Now the simple fact is that if this company is run by decent people who would have had no problem accepting you, and you accuse them of discrimination when no such thing was ever intended, you are not making friends.
On the other hand, you are welcome to give a complete list of everything you would like added to "m/f" to not discriminate against anybody. And the longer the list, the more likely it is that you actually intend to discriminate against anyone not on the list.
answered Dec 22 '15 at 14:00
gnasher729
70.9k31131222
2
Companies care a lot about their reputation and hiring is hard. Coming off as a discriminating workplace would be a turnoff for me (I'm a cisgender heterosexual (married) male). Here, it is common to write "The job listing is written in male tense, but it applies to all genders equally" (vs the older "both genders").
– Benjamin Gruenbaum
Dec 22 '15 at 15:34
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
2
down vote
As to the "Wouldn't that come off as discriminating towards people that do not identify as male or female?"
Companies are interested in finding someone to do the job. Decent companies don't care about gender, skin colour, religion and so on as long as it doesn't interfere with the job.
If you don't identify as male or female, it's your choice to assume that this is a decent company that doesn't care about gender and apply and get the job, or don't get the job because someone else was better, or don't get the job because of illegal discrimination and sue them. Or you can assume that there is a conspiracy against you, clearly expressed by stating they accept male and female people. Now the simple fact is that if this company is run by decent people who would have had no problem accepting you, and you accuse them of discrimination when no such thing was ever intended, you are not making friends.
On the other hand, you are welcome to give a complete list of everything you would like added to "m/f" to not discriminate against anybody. And the longer the list, the more likely it is that you actually intend to discriminate against anyone not on the list.
answered Dec 22 '15 at 14:00
gnasher729
70.9k31131222
2
Companies care a lot about their reputation and hiring is hard. Coming off as a discriminating workplace would be a turnoff for me (I'm a cisgender heterosexual (married) male). Here, it is common to write "The job listing is written in male tense, but it applies to all genders equally" (vs the older "both genders").
– Benjamin Gruenbaum
Dec 22 '15 at 15:34
suggest improvements |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
As to the "Wouldn't that come off as discriminating towards people that do not identify as male or female?"
Companies are interested in finding someone to do the job. Decent companies don't care about gender, skin colour, religion and so on as long as it doesn't interfere with the job.
If you don't identify as male or female, it's your choice to assume that this is a decent company that doesn't care about gender and apply and get the job, or don't get the job because someone else was better, or don't get the job because of illegal discrimination and sue them. Or you can assume that there is a conspiracy against you, clearly expressed by stating they accept male and female people. Now the simple fact is that if this company is run by decent people who would have had no problem accepting you, and you accuse them of discrimination when no such thing was ever intended, you are not making friends.
On the other hand, you are welcome to give a complete list of everything you would like added to "m/f" to not discriminate against anybody. And the longer the list, the more likely it is that you actually intend to discriminate against anyone not on the list.
answered Dec 22 '15 at 14:00
gnasher729
70.9k31131222
As to the "Wouldn't that come off as discriminating towards people that do not identify as male or female?"
Companies are interested in finding someone to do the job. Decent companies don't care about gender, skin colour, religion and so on as long as it doesn't interfere with the job.
If you don't identify as male or female, it's your choice to assume that this is a decent company that doesn't care about gender and apply and get the job, or don't get the job because someone else was better, or don't get the job because of illegal discrimination and sue them. Or you can assume that there is a conspiracy against you, clearly expressed by stating they accept male and female people. Now the simple fact is that if this company is run by decent people who would have had no problem accepting you, and you accuse them of discrimination when no such thing was ever intended, you are not making friends.
On the other hand, you are welcome to give a complete list of everything you would like added to "m/f" to not discriminate against anybody. And the longer the list, the more likely it is that you actually intend to discriminate against anyone not on the list.
answered Dec 22 '15 at 14:00
gnasher729
70.9k31131222
answered Dec 22 '15 at 14:00
gnasher729
70.9k31131222
answered Dec 22 '15 at 14:00
gnasher729
70.9k31131222
answered Dec 22 '15 at 14:00
gnasher729
70.9k31131222
70.9k31131222
2
Companies care a lot about their reputation and hiring is hard. Coming off as a discriminating workplace would be a turnoff for me (I'm a cisgender heterosexual (married) male). Here, it is common to write "The job listing is written in male tense, but it applies to all genders equally" (vs the older "both genders").
– Benjamin Gruenbaum
Dec 22 '15 at 15:34
suggest improvements |Â
2
Companies care a lot about their reputation and hiring is hard. Coming off as a discriminating workplace would be a turnoff for me (I'm a cisgender heterosexual (married) male). Here, it is common to write "The job listing is written in male tense, but it applies to all genders equally" (vs the older "both genders").
– Benjamin Gruenbaum
Dec 22 '15 at 15:34
2
2
Companies care a lot about their reputation and hiring is hard. Coming off as a discriminating workplace would be a turnoff for me (I'm a cisgender heterosexual (married) male). Here, it is common to write "The job listing is written in male tense, but it applies to all genders equally" (vs the older "both genders").
– Benjamin Gruenbaum
Dec 22 '15 at 15:34
Companies care a lot about their reputation and hiring is hard. Coming off as a discriminating workplace would be a turnoff for me (I'm a cisgender heterosexual (married) male). Here, it is common to write "The job listing is written in male tense, but it applies to all genders equally" (vs the older "both genders").
– Benjamin Gruenbaum
Dec 22 '15 at 15:34
suggest improvements |Â
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8
I don't think it's always as obvious that women are welcome in IT since there are so few. I think it's a (bad) way to say "we aren't a boys only club".
– Luggage
Dec 20 '15 at 15:42
6
The Belgian Federal Government now even writes out positions with (m/v/x) in the title, so people who don't identify with either m/v know they can apply as well, and mark "x" as gender.
– Konerak
Dec 21 '15 at 9:47
9
This actually means "(male/female)"?!? I had always assumed it meant "Monday through Friday", as in "full time". Is this seriously something that indicates the gender for a job outside of performance art (where actual vs apparent gender isn't even the point) or maybe infantry? WOW!
– zxq9
Dec 21 '15 at 15:37
6
@zxq9 Did you not take the time to read the answer that explains this is a legal requirement due to gendered nouns in the language itself? Think of the term "fireman" - we use "firefighter" nowadays. Some languages don't have those neutral words for all base words, so they put m/f to make it clear.
– corsiKa
Dec 21 '15 at 16:58
1
While interesting, try to keep the political and social issues related to this question either on the appropriate SE sites (or The Workplace Chat). Thanks!
– Elysian Fields♦
Dec 22 '15 at 1:53