Iyfjky

Question

I am 23 and I will soon join a team of ~15 developers who are all significantly older than I: They are between 40 and over 50 I believe, which means some of them certainly have children my age... I only saw them once for a few minutes when the decision of me joining their team was made.

I had the choice between several teams and chose them because what they are working on what interests me most, yet the head of HR wanted to "warn me", that "the people of that team are significantly older than you" before I made my choice, not going into any detail and not answering my direct question about what she meant (I didn't press it and maybe there isn't more to it after all!).

Previously I worked on a team where I was among the older developers. Now I am having diffuse fears about problems inherent to a situation where a rather young person joins a rather old team. For example, not being taken seriously because of my age, being unable to connect with my future work mates on a personal level or being hated because they fear being replaced by younger people.

What I want to ask is:
Are there any such potential problems with that constellation I should be aware of and if there are, how do I diffuse them from the start?

Surely the workplace homogenously staffed by the young is the place to fear?: high turnover, low appreciation of skill, lack of people to learn from etc — Oct 11 '15 at 23:33
I'd start off by not referring to us as "rather old". I prefer "wise", although "experienced" will suffice :) — Oct 12 '15 at 14:00
I think you need to look in your own back yard, first. Your question has so much front-loaded age bias that it's difficult to read. — Oct 12 '15 at 15:26
"Hey kid, don't bother me, I've got punch cards older than you" — Oct 12 '15 at 16:09

Professor Allman 22116 · Answer 1 · 2015-10-12 14:37:10Z

Don't worry you will catch up to their age one day ;) I joined my team when I was 22 four years ago and am the youngest by about ~25 years. I haven't had any issues being sociable. Adults are most of the time adults and it's pretty easy to be taken serious when you act professional and know what you are talking about. Just be open to being wrong and learn what you can from others.

It's pretty easy to connect with people who have been through what you have(and then some) already. I have had conversations with my coworkers about my schooling and they share their experiences from when they were in school or how their children are in a similar situation. Have a healthy social life outside of work and you will find that you don't need as deep of a social connection with your coworkers; after all the workplace is primarily for conducting work. I really enjoy the time I spend with my co-workers during the day, but I don't think they would be interested in listening to the fetty wap and playing xbox after work.

I find saying "I'm getting to old for this" a pretty good diffuser.

"The fetty wap" reminds me of when my aunt says "the Facebook" :D — Oct 14 '15 at 11:38
I do not feel much need for work related forced socialization, but since I will spend roughly a third of my future months or years at that place I am terribly afraid of a hostile atmosphere. While I am in no way defenseless I abhor conflict. Since leaving school I had no significant experience with hostile group environments, but I read workplace-stories here and heard some from friends that make me shudder. That's why I am trying my best to be prepared for everything. — Oct 14 '15 at 11:43
Look up conflict resolution and acquire some skills in that area. If you start to have conflicts with a co-worker my advice is to document everything such as conversations, phone calls, emails, etc. It's best to have a recorded history of interactions when the ish hits the fan. Remember you cannot prepare for everything; keep calm and carry on — Oct 14 '15 at 16:11

user8365 · Answer 2 · 2015-10-12 14:59:45Z

The HR person is just making a very broad assumption that a young person can't work in an older team. This person probably doesn't really understand how the development teams works anyway, so I wouldn't put a lot into it.

They hired you for a reason. As an older developer I realize I approach many things differently than younger ones, but I don't think that is a bad thing. You're going to make suggestions that won't be accepted, how are you going to handle it? Can you defend without getting defensive and emotional? If the decision is made and it is not in your favor are you going to argue forever? At some point will you realize you're not in charge and have to work with the decisions of others? We all have to at some point unless you work alone and build software for yourself.

Be a team player. You're new, so step back and soak up some knowledge about how things work. Ask questions without being accusing. Suggesting they rewrite a million lines of COBOL code in the latest javascript framework, isn't going to make you look like a rockstar. Getting things done in the context of your team will-eventually.

I think that your point about having different perspectives on a team is a good one. I wonder if this same HR person would have warned a developer if the team was segregated some other way. "Yeah, that team is full of folks from the Northeast and since you grew up in the Midwest you might want to rethink your choice." — Oct 12 '15 at 16:39
I am not afraid of having opinions and ideas that are rejected, I am afraid of it happening for non objective reasons though and feeling invalidated as a consequence. Generally, if I believe my idea is better but I am asked to do it another way I will do it, with the worst consequence of me not doing it with high motivation. A side note: There are million lines of COBOL maintained by my future coworkers, though I will probably never work with it directly. I am there since "they were unable to retrain to Java"... — Oct 14 '15 at 11:49
@user42806 How you respond to non-objective rejections of ideas is completely within your control. Anticipating problems has a nasty tendency to create those problems. There are young folks who will act subjectively too, so try to act from the assumption that folks aren't going to disparage you because of your age. If you are the Java expert, you may have to explain your Java related ideas a bit more to non-experts, and be patient with folks when they are out of their element. Treat others with professionalism and respect and most will reciprocate. — Oct 15 '15 at 17:42
@user42806 - I don't think any developer deals with the subjective, political, emotional and territorial influences with decisions. It is important for other members to realize your disagreement and willingness to go along with it. Maybe they can take this consideration in future decisions, but I don't think you should let your demotivation show so you'll be taken seriously as a professional. — user8365, Oct 17 '15 at 13:28

DVK 1,8921118 · Answer 3 · 2015-10-12 16:38:54Z

Are there any such potential problems with that constellation I should be aware of and if there are, how do I diffuse them from the start?

Yes, there are potential problems. Interestingly enough, you already listed many of them, which means you're perceptive enough to hopefully navigate this situation well.

I'll list the ones you came up with first.

not being taken seriously because of my age,

That's a possibility, though age and experience don't always correlate. Neither does age and ability.

The BEST way to address this is quite simple:

Show your competence (above the level expected of your age and expected experience, hopefully)

Show willingness and ability to learn

After a fairly short amount of time, competent team members tend to only care about your competence, not your age.

being unable to connect with my future work mates on a personal level

There are two different facets of this (common interests; and understanding their situation). I'll unpack them below.

or being hated because they fear being replaced by younger people

If you're the first/only younger person on the team, I seriously doubt that they would harbor that fear on your behalf. They may have such a concern in abstract, and frankly, there isn't much you can do about it.

The only way you can make it better is by demonstrating that you value their expertise and experience and meaningfully consider them valuable resources for the team/company.

Also, possible concerns you didn't mention:

That you won't gel on interpersonal level due to vastly different interests (you would stereotypically care about partying, nightlife, etc... They would stereotypicaly care about golf, mortgages, and whatever else older people stereotype you can make up).

This is a valid concern, but generally, easy to address. Display interest/curiosity in topics they discuss (even if not all of them matter to you now). Heck, you might even benefit from aquiring knowledge you'll find useful later in life. Don't act like you're cool and they are not (Watch Men In Black and act the opposite of Will Smith :)

Remember, the goal isn't to be a perfect social fit with every member of the team. It's to demonstrate respect and interest and connection with them as a human being.

Also, who knows, you may find out you and many of them have far more in common in interests than a stereotype of both of your ages leads one to assume.

That you would clash because of concerns/lifestyle difference.

You may be a young workaholic happy to stay in office till 9pm. Older team members are a little more likely to want to finish up in reasonable time and head home to their kids.

This is harder to address, and really is up to the management to resolve. if they do their job, and aren't penalized for not doing insane overtime, it shouldn't really be a tangible issue. If you offer to help ("hey, this support ticket came at 5:30pm, I know you need to go take your kids to soccer - I'll handle it for you", they'll quickly switch to your biggest fans. I speak from experience of being on BOTH ends of that quote :)

You may want to take risks, they are less likely to be willing to.

That's natural (and on a more narrow level, reflects in investment allocations).

To address this, make sure to NOT take risks that endanger everyone on the team. Do you want to try out a pie-in-the-sky likely to fail project with possible big payoff? Don't position them as being responsible for it and especially its likely failure.

You may be attracted to latest cool technologies. They know their stuff and may be slightly less willing to learn shiny new technology because it's "cool".

This is easy to address. The correct mindset for BOTH older and younger developers is to pick the best technology for the purpose. So... if a cool new thing demonstrably does the work better than old thing (AND the margin is greater than the new-technology-risk + learning curve), they would be less likely to object and more likely to go along. It works even better if you're willing to personally pilot new stuff, AND teach them what you learned, using your code as example.

They may feel you're promoted undeservedly.

This one is both easy and impossible to address. Make sure everyone sees you deserve what you get by achievements. Fair ones will accept it and be happy for you. Jealous jerks will be jealous jerks, and you can't really fix that issue. If not age, they'd find another excuse for disliking that you get promoted and they don't.

Charles E. Grant 2,6791817 · Answer 4 · 2015-10-11 18:43:40Z

Are there any such potential problems with that constellation I should
be aware of and if there are, how do I diffuse them from the start?

Well sure, there are potential problems in joining any new group, I don't know that the situation you describe is more particularly fraught. Start by assuming competence and good will on their part. Give it a year or so to decide whether it's you or they who's suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Not sure why you mention "Dunning-Kruger effect". OP didn't mention anything like "I'm so much better than those old guys". It sounds more like he's genuinely trying to fit into a team where the age difference seems noticeable. — Oct 12 '15 at 12:42
I am aware that they have centuries of experience more than I have, which is a good thing for me: I can learn a lot from them. I don't think I will fall prey to the Dunning-Kruger effect and hope they won't either. — Oct 14 '15 at 11:37

cdkMoose 9,29822042 · Answer 5 · 2015-10-12 16:28:37Z

First of all, act professionally and treat all members of the team with respect, regardless of their place on the age spectrum. Being a good team player can cover a lot of differences.

It is very important that all members of the team recognize that Baby Boomers, Generation X and Millenials grew up in different times with different formative events driving the development of their philosophies on work and life. If all team members think a little about these differences in background, you can avoid a lot of problems. If these differences are respected, this can create a effective diverse team.

My company hires recent graduates all of the time and we have plenty of more experienced employees without this creating any issues. HR even has an internal training class to help employees work across generational differences. Last year, one of our new hires happened to be a young man who is a good friend of my son's and someone I coached in little league. I treat him as any other employee and to him I am now Mr. P instead of Coach P. Age only matters if you make it matter.

That's what I will do. Thank you for your response.
â€“Â user42806
Oct 14 '15 at 11:38 — Oct 14 '15 at 11:38

Professor Allman 22116 · Answer 6 · 2015-10-12 14:37:10Z

Don't worry you will catch up to their age one day ;) I joined my team when I was 22 four years ago and am the youngest by about ~25 years. I haven't had any issues being sociable. Adults are most of the time adults and it's pretty easy to be taken serious when you act professional and know what you are talking about. Just be open to being wrong and learn what you can from others.

It's pretty easy to connect with people who have been through what you have(and then some) already. I have had conversations with my coworkers about my schooling and they share their experiences from when they were in school or how their children are in a similar situation. Have a healthy social life outside of work and you will find that you don't need as deep of a social connection with your coworkers; after all the workplace is primarily for conducting work. I really enjoy the time I spend with my co-workers during the day, but I don't think they would be interested in listening to the fetty wap and playing xbox after work.

I find saying "I'm getting to old for this" a pretty good diffuser.

"The fetty wap" reminds me of when my aunt says "the Facebook" :D — Oct 14 '15 at 11:38
I do not feel much need for work related forced socialization, but since I will spend roughly a third of my future months or years at that place I am terribly afraid of a hostile atmosphere. While I am in no way defenseless I abhor conflict. Since leaving school I had no significant experience with hostile group environments, but I read workplace-stories here and heard some from friends that make me shudder. That's why I am trying my best to be prepared for everything. — Oct 14 '15 at 11:43
Look up conflict resolution and acquire some skills in that area. If you start to have conflicts with a co-worker my advice is to document everything such as conversations, phone calls, emails, etc. It's best to have a recorded history of interactions when the ish hits the fan. Remember you cannot prepare for everything; keep calm and carry on — Oct 14 '15 at 16:11

user8365 · Answer 7 · 2015-10-12 14:59:45Z

The HR person is just making a very broad assumption that a young person can't work in an older team. This person probably doesn't really understand how the development teams works anyway, so I wouldn't put a lot into it.

They hired you for a reason. As an older developer I realize I approach many things differently than younger ones, but I don't think that is a bad thing. You're going to make suggestions that won't be accepted, how are you going to handle it? Can you defend without getting defensive and emotional? If the decision is made and it is not in your favor are you going to argue forever? At some point will you realize you're not in charge and have to work with the decisions of others? We all have to at some point unless you work alone and build software for yourself.

Be a team player. You're new, so step back and soak up some knowledge about how things work. Ask questions without being accusing. Suggesting they rewrite a million lines of COBOL code in the latest javascript framework, isn't going to make you look like a rockstar. Getting things done in the context of your team will-eventually.

I think that your point about having different perspectives on a team is a good one. I wonder if this same HR person would have warned a developer if the team was segregated some other way. "Yeah, that team is full of folks from the Northeast and since you grew up in the Midwest you might want to rethink your choice." — Oct 12 '15 at 16:39
I am not afraid of having opinions and ideas that are rejected, I am afraid of it happening for non objective reasons though and feeling invalidated as a consequence. Generally, if I believe my idea is better but I am asked to do it another way I will do it, with the worst consequence of me not doing it with high motivation. A side note: There are million lines of COBOL maintained by my future coworkers, though I will probably never work with it directly. I am there since "they were unable to retrain to Java"... — Oct 14 '15 at 11:49
@user42806 How you respond to non-objective rejections of ideas is completely within your control. Anticipating problems has a nasty tendency to create those problems. There are young folks who will act subjectively too, so try to act from the assumption that folks aren't going to disparage you because of your age. If you are the Java expert, you may have to explain your Java related ideas a bit more to non-experts, and be patient with folks when they are out of their element. Treat others with professionalism and respect and most will reciprocate. — Oct 15 '15 at 17:42
@user42806 - I don't think any developer deals with the subjective, political, emotional and territorial influences with decisions. It is important for other members to realize your disagreement and willingness to go along with it. Maybe they can take this consideration in future decisions, but I don't think you should let your demotivation show so you'll be taken seriously as a professional. — user8365, Oct 17 '15 at 13:28

DVK 1,8921118 · Answer 8 · 2015-10-12 16:38:54Z

Are there any such potential problems with that constellation I should be aware of and if there are, how do I diffuse them from the start?

Yes, there are potential problems. Interestingly enough, you already listed many of them, which means you're perceptive enough to hopefully navigate this situation well.

I'll list the ones you came up with first.

not being taken seriously because of my age,

That's a possibility, though age and experience don't always correlate. Neither does age and ability.

The BEST way to address this is quite simple:

Show your competence (above the level expected of your age and expected experience, hopefully)

Show willingness and ability to learn

After a fairly short amount of time, competent team members tend to only care about your competence, not your age.

being unable to connect with my future work mates on a personal level

There are two different facets of this (common interests; and understanding their situation). I'll unpack them below.

or being hated because they fear being replaced by younger people

If you're the first/only younger person on the team, I seriously doubt that they would harbor that fear on your behalf. They may have such a concern in abstract, and frankly, there isn't much you can do about it.

The only way you can make it better is by demonstrating that you value their expertise and experience and meaningfully consider them valuable resources for the team/company.

Also, possible concerns you didn't mention:

That you won't gel on interpersonal level due to vastly different interests (you would stereotypically care about partying, nightlife, etc... They would stereotypicaly care about golf, mortgages, and whatever else older people stereotype you can make up).

This is a valid concern, but generally, easy to address. Display interest/curiosity in topics they discuss (even if not all of them matter to you now). Heck, you might even benefit from aquiring knowledge you'll find useful later in life. Don't act like you're cool and they are not (Watch Men In Black and act the opposite of Will Smith :)

Remember, the goal isn't to be a perfect social fit with every member of the team. It's to demonstrate respect and interest and connection with them as a human being.

Also, who knows, you may find out you and many of them have far more in common in interests than a stereotype of both of your ages leads one to assume.

That you would clash because of concerns/lifestyle difference.

You may be a young workaholic happy to stay in office till 9pm. Older team members are a little more likely to want to finish up in reasonable time and head home to their kids.

This is harder to address, and really is up to the management to resolve. if they do their job, and aren't penalized for not doing insane overtime, it shouldn't really be a tangible issue. If you offer to help ("hey, this support ticket came at 5:30pm, I know you need to go take your kids to soccer - I'll handle it for you", they'll quickly switch to your biggest fans. I speak from experience of being on BOTH ends of that quote :)

You may want to take risks, they are less likely to be willing to.

That's natural (and on a more narrow level, reflects in investment allocations).

To address this, make sure to NOT take risks that endanger everyone on the team. Do you want to try out a pie-in-the-sky likely to fail project with possible big payoff? Don't position them as being responsible for it and especially its likely failure.

You may be attracted to latest cool technologies. They know their stuff and may be slightly less willing to learn shiny new technology because it's "cool".

This is easy to address. The correct mindset for BOTH older and younger developers is to pick the best technology for the purpose. So... if a cool new thing demonstrably does the work better than old thing (AND the margin is greater than the new-technology-risk + learning curve), they would be less likely to object and more likely to go along. It works even better if you're willing to personally pilot new stuff, AND teach them what you learned, using your code as example.

They may feel you're promoted undeservedly.

This one is both easy and impossible to address. Make sure everyone sees you deserve what you get by achievements. Fair ones will accept it and be happy for you. Jealous jerks will be jealous jerks, and you can't really fix that issue. If not age, they'd find another excuse for disliking that you get promoted and they don't.

Charles E. Grant 2,6791817 · Answer 9 · 2015-10-11 18:43:40Z

Are there any such potential problems with that constellation I should
be aware of and if there are, how do I diffuse them from the start?

Well sure, there are potential problems in joining any new group, I don't know that the situation you describe is more particularly fraught. Start by assuming competence and good will on their part. Give it a year or so to decide whether it's you or they who's suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Not sure why you mention "Dunning-Kruger effect". OP didn't mention anything like "I'm so much better than those old guys". It sounds more like he's genuinely trying to fit into a team where the age difference seems noticeable. — Oct 12 '15 at 12:42
I am aware that they have centuries of experience more than I have, which is a good thing for me: I can learn a lot from them. I don't think I will fall prey to the Dunning-Kruger effect and hope they won't either. — Oct 14 '15 at 11:37

cdkMoose 9,29822042 · Answer 10 · 2015-10-12 16:28:37Z

First of all, act professionally and treat all members of the team with respect, regardless of their place on the age spectrum. Being a good team player can cover a lot of differences.

It is very important that all members of the team recognize that Baby Boomers, Generation X and Millenials grew up in different times with different formative events driving the development of their philosophies on work and life. If all team members think a little about these differences in background, you can avoid a lot of problems. If these differences are respected, this can create a effective diverse team.

My company hires recent graduates all of the time and we have plenty of more experienced employees without this creating any issues. HR even has an internal training class to help employees work across generational differences. Last year, one of our new hires happened to be a young man who is a good friend of my son's and someone I coached in little league. I treat him as any other employee and to him I am now Mr. P instead of Coach P. Age only matters if you make it matter.

That's what I will do. Thank you for your response.
â€“Â user42806
Oct 14 '15 at 11:38 — Oct 14 '15 at 11:38

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Joining a team of rather old developers [closed]

closed as primarily opinion-based by Jim G., gnat, Wesley Long, Lilienthalâ™¦, IDrinkandIKnowThings Oct 14 '15 at 17:35

closed as primarily opinion-based by Jim G., gnat, Wesley Long, Lilienthalâ™¦, IDrinkandIKnowThings Oct 14 '15 at 17:35

closed as primarily opinion-based by Jim G., gnat, Wesley Long, Lilienthalâ™¦, IDrinkandIKnowThings Oct 14 '15 at 17:35

closed as primarily opinion-based by Jim G., gnat, Wesley Long, Lilienthalâ™¦, IDrinkandIKnowThings Oct 14 '15 at 17:35

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Joining a team of rather old developers [closed]

closed as primarily opinion-based by Jim G., gnat, Wesley Long, Lilienthalâ™¦, IDrinkandIKnowThings Oct 14 '15 at 17:35

closed as primarily opinion-based by Jim G., gnat, Wesley Long, Lilienthalâ™¦, IDrinkandIKnowThings Oct 14 '15 at 17:35

closed as primarily opinion-based by Jim G., gnat, Wesley Long, Lilienthalâ™¦, IDrinkandIKnowThings Oct 14 '15 at 17:35

closed as primarily opinion-based by Jim G., gnat, Wesley Long, Lilienthalâ™¦, IDrinkandIKnowThings Oct 14 '15 at 17:35

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What does second last employer means? [closed]

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